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Author Topic:   The Essence Of Faith & Belief.
Phat
Member
Posts: 14284
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 106 of 189 (743550)
12-02-2014 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by ringo
12-01-2014 11:21 AM


Re: What Is Truth?
ringo writes:

The do-gooder approach that you seem to advocate is fine too, as long as it isn't used to rationalize doing nothing.

Allow me to play devils advocate for a moment.(seeing how satan hates giving money away )
  • Why should I work hard for my money every day and then freely give it away with no regard nor care of its impact or significance? In essence, I would be supporting an extended family of dysfunctional addicted adults with the nebulous hope that one day one or more of them might benefit from my hard earned funds and turn their own life around?

    Sounds rather cost inefficient to me, though to be fair it is better to give it away than gamble it.


    Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo

    One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo


  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 103 by ringo, posted 12-01-2014 11:21 AM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 108 by ringo, posted 12-02-2014 11:36 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
     Message 109 by Taq, posted 12-02-2014 3:03 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
     Message 118 by Omnivorous, posted 08-06-2015 5:30 PM Phat has responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 18504
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 1.6


    (2)
    Message 107 of 189 (743558)
    12-02-2014 11:27 AM
    Reply to: Message 105 by NoNukes
    12-02-2014 8:17 AM


    Re: What Is Truth?
    NoNukes writes:

    I didn't ask you to follow up on every dollar you give away. But you can follow up if you see the same people repeatedly over a period of time.


    I don't see the same people repeatedly.

    What... I'm... saying... is... I don't turn somebody down just because he might use the money to buy beer or drugs. If he tells me he needs money for food or bus fare, I give him the benefit of the doubt. I don't polygraph him. I don't follow him and blacklist him if he wasn't telling the truth.

    NoNukes writes:

    As for doing nothing, no I'm not advocating that either.


    All too often, "He'll probably spend it on drugs," is an excuse to do nothing.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 105 by NoNukes, posted 12-02-2014 8:17 AM NoNukes has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 110 by Phat, posted 01-16-2015 6:03 PM ringo has responded
     Message 113 by NoNukes, posted 01-17-2015 3:55 PM ringo has responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 18504
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 1.6


    Message 108 of 189 (743559)
    12-02-2014 11:36 AM
    Reply to: Message 106 by Phat
    12-02-2014 10:17 AM


    Re: What Is Truth?
    Phat writes:

    In essence, I would be supporting an extended family of dysfunctional addicted adults with the nebulous hope that one day one or more of them might benefit from my hard earned funds and turn their own life around?


    quote:
    1 Corinthians 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

    Maybe you should change the title of the thread to Faith, nebulous Hope, Charity and Belief.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 106 by Phat, posted 12-02-2014 10:17 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    Taq
    Member
    Posts: 8409
    Joined: 03-06-2009
    Member Rating: 1.9


    (1)
    Message 109 of 189 (743585)
    12-02-2014 3:03 PM
    Reply to: Message 106 by Phat
    12-02-2014 10:17 AM


    Re: What Is Truth?
    In essence, I would be supporting an extended family of dysfunctional addicted adults with the nebulous hope that one day one or more of them might benefit from my hard earned funds and turn their own life around?

    From a pragmatic view, it is far more cost effecient to set a low bar for welfare recipients than it is to spend massive amounts of money making sure that the recipients are good people. You don't spend a dollar to cure a dime's worth of waste.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 106 by Phat, posted 12-02-2014 10:17 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 14284
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 110 of 189 (747587)
    01-16-2015 6:03 PM
    Reply to: Message 107 by ringo
    12-02-2014 11:27 AM


    Re: What Is Truth?
    ringo writes:

    All too often, "He'll probably spend it on drugs," is an excuse to do nothing.

    We need to be wise Stewards with the money we are given.

    We don't want to hoard it or waste it. It is wise to use common sense when giving to street people.


    Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
    It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
    If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God — only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 107 by ringo, posted 12-02-2014 11:27 AM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 111 by ringo, posted 01-17-2015 12:00 PM Phat has responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 18504
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 1.6


    Message 111 of 189 (747624)
    01-17-2015 12:00 PM
    Reply to: Message 110 by Phat
    01-16-2015 6:03 PM


    Re: What Is Truth?
    Phat writes:

    We need to be wise Stewards with the money we are given.


    Are we though? Is it wiser to give the money to a panhandler or to spend it at Starbucks?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 110 by Phat, posted 01-16-2015 6:03 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 112 by Phat, posted 01-17-2015 2:59 PM ringo has responded
     Message 117 by Phat, posted 08-06-2015 5:21 PM ringo has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 14284
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 112 of 189 (747634)
    01-17-2015 2:59 PM
    Reply to: Message 111 by ringo
    01-17-2015 12:00 PM


    Who Chooses Which Panhandler To Help?
    Is it wiser to give the money to a panhandler or to spend it at Starbucks?
    Personally, I am quite frugal with my money. I try and avoid starbucks in general--it is simply too expensive. I can buy a whole can of coffee and make my own drink at home. Having more money in my pocket means that if I am sensitive to the Spirit and a panhandler is placed on my heart I can then give them an adequate amount to help them. Not everyone who says "do you have any spare change" is necessarily eligible for a gift. God does the choosing...I obey the inner unction.

    Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
    It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
    If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God — only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 111 by ringo, posted 01-17-2015 12:00 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 114 by ringo, posted 01-18-2015 1:14 PM Phat has responded

      
    NoNukes
    Inactive Member


    Message 113 of 189 (747639)
    01-17-2015 3:55 PM
    Reply to: Message 107 by ringo
    12-02-2014 11:27 AM


    Re: What Is Truth?
    I don't see the same people repeatedly.

    I do.

    What... I'm... saying... is... I don't turn somebody down just because he might use the money to buy beer or drugs.

    That's fine. Just don't make silly claims that you are helping when you do as you do. You've advanced a scenario where your trust in the person is going to elevate them somehow. I have direct experience that says it does not. And frankly there is no real evidence that you give a hoot since you don't make any effort to see the same people.

    But it's your money and your conscience.


    Je Suis Charlie

    Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

    If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 107 by ringo, posted 12-02-2014 11:27 AM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 115 by ringo, posted 01-18-2015 1:19 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 18504
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 1.6


    (1)
    Message 114 of 189 (747681)
    01-18-2015 1:14 PM
    Reply to: Message 112 by Phat
    01-17-2015 2:59 PM


    Re: Who Chooses Which Panhandler To Help?
    Phat writes:

    Not everyone who says "do you have any spare change" is necessarily eligible for a gift.


    quote:
    Matthew 7:7-10 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?

    That's God's policy. Why would you supersede it?

    Phat writes:

    ...I obey the inner unction.


    Do you?
    quote:
    Matthew 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 112 by Phat, posted 01-17-2015 2:59 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 116 by Phat, posted 08-06-2015 5:15 PM ringo has responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 18504
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 1.6


    (1)
    Message 115 of 189 (747682)
    01-18-2015 1:19 PM
    Reply to: Message 113 by NoNukes
    01-17-2015 3:55 PM


    Re: What Is Truth?
    NoNukes writes:

    Just don't make silly claims that you are helping when you do as you do.


    I didn't make any claim. I said that I don't like to risk not helping when a couple of dollars might help.

    NoNukes writes:

    You've advanced a scenario where your trust in the person is going to elevate them somehow. I have direct experience that says it does not.


    Your direct experience of a dog with three legs does not disprove the existence of dogs with four legs.

    NoNukes writes:

    And frankly there is no real evidence that you give a hoot since you don't make any effort to see the same people.


    I don't need to show you any evidence that I give a hoot.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 113 by NoNukes, posted 01-17-2015 3:55 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 14284
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 116 of 189 (765827)
    08-06-2015 5:15 PM
    Reply to: Message 114 by ringo
    01-18-2015 1:14 PM


    Re: Who Chooses Which Panhandler To Help?
    Phat writes:

    Not everyone who says "do you have any spare change" is necessarily eligible for a gift.


    (Whereupon Ringo quotes scripture)
    quote:
    Matthew 7:7-10 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?

    Ringo writes:

    That's God's policy. Why would you supersede it?

    The scripture refers to us asking God...not each other.

    If more street people trusted God rather than attempting to sponge money off of every driver with an extra buck in their wallet, they might get off of the streets and not become codependant on begging.

    Mind you, I don't look for excuses not to give, but I also don't simply hand out money to whosoever asks. That isn't wise.

    (whereupon ringo again quotes scripture)

    quote:
    Matthew 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
    I wouldnt simply expect anyone and everyone to hand me money either. If I was in need and was in prayer, God would provide through His people.

    Edited by Phat, : added


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 114 by ringo, posted 01-18-2015 1:14 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 125 by ringo, posted 08-07-2015 12:33 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 14284
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 117 of 189 (765829)
    08-06-2015 5:21 PM
    Reply to: Message 111 by ringo
    01-17-2015 12:00 PM


    Re: What Is Truth?
    ringo writes:

    Is it wiser to give the money to a panhandler or to spend it at Starbucks?

    It depends on the moment and the circumstances. Certainly one is allowed to spend some of their money on themselves.

    On the other hand, let us not forget our many panhandlers...for we could end up as one of them.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 111 by ringo, posted 01-17-2015 12:00 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 126 by ringo, posted 08-07-2015 12:36 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    Omnivorous
    Member (Idle past 190 days)
    Posts: 3811
    From: Adirondackia
    Joined: 07-21-2005


    (1)
    Message 118 of 189 (765830)
    08-06-2015 5:30 PM
    Reply to: Message 106 by Phat
    12-02-2014 10:17 AM


    Re: What Is Truth?
    Phat writes:

    .(seeing how satan hates giving money away )

    That's not fair.

    In my experience, the devil is far more free with his cash than, say, preachers.

    And all those prosperity churches had to come from somewhere--Jesus wouldn't fund them.


    "If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 106 by Phat, posted 12-02-2014 10:17 AM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 119 by Phat, posted 08-06-2015 8:40 PM Omnivorous has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 14284
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 119 of 189 (765841)
    08-06-2015 8:40 PM
    Reply to: Message 118 by Omnivorous
    08-06-2015 5:30 PM


    Re: What Is Truth?
    Omni writes:

    And all those prosperity churches had to come from somewhere--Jesus wouldn't fund them.

    A fool and his money are soon parted.

    My ongoing point with Ringo is that one should use wisdom when giving money away. As for satan....he wont hesitate to buy you a drink, but he is more reluctant to help you move.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 118 by Omnivorous, posted 08-06-2015 5:30 PM Omnivorous has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 120 by Omnivorous, posted 08-06-2015 10:58 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
     Message 127 by ringo, posted 08-07-2015 12:40 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    Omnivorous
    Member (Idle past 190 days)
    Posts: 3811
    From: Adirondackia
    Joined: 07-21-2005


    Message 120 of 189 (765852)
    08-06-2015 10:58 PM
    Reply to: Message 119 by Phat
    08-06-2015 8:40 PM


    Re: What Is Truth?
    Phat writes:

    A fool and his money are soon parted.

    Lovely English proverb, isn't it? More fishwife-like than Christ-like, though.

    My ongoing point with Ringo[...]

    I noticed that

    [...]is that one should use wisdom when giving money away.

    Perhaps, like me, Ringo hears quite a bit more "use wisdom" than "give money away." Jesus certainly didn't outline a process for grading the poor to sort out the deserving.

    I understand that no one wants to waste money, especially what we can afford to give away. But I'm accustomed to Christians testifying about their faith in the face of great unknowns and trials, so it seems odd: face the lions with panache, sure, but follow Christ's injunction (and Christ) by helping the first and next persons you see in need of help...well, that's just too dicey. How will God know who deserves my help? How will He put them in my path? I just can't believe that bit.

    Consider that the person most in need of help, by your rubric, will usually be the person appearing least deserving of it. The person most eligible for help is going to look a lot like you. Should you be right, and Jesus return, which one do you think he'd look like?

    --------------------------------------------------

    NB:

    Now, you know I'm not a Christian, so you're probably thinking some of that criticism just ain't fair. Well, it wasn't criticism so much as commentary on the central fault in modern Christianity--it married money.

    Me, I'm more pagan anarchist than anything, prone to giving money away on impulse, guilty of handing out beers to bums walking through the Fens on New Year's eve in Boston. Hell, even winos deserve a drink on New Year's eve. If I happened to run into Jesus there, I definitely gave him a beer.

    Edited by Omnivorous, : Nice bunch of guys, too.


    "If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 119 by Phat, posted 08-06-2015 8:40 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    Replies to this message:
     Message 121 by Faith, posted 08-07-2015 1:11 AM Omnivorous has responded
     Message 129 by NoNukes, posted 08-07-2015 2:55 PM Omnivorous has responded

      
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