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Author | Topic: The Essence Of Faith & Belief. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18712 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.2 |
ringo writes: Allow me to play devils advocate for a moment.(seeing how satan hates giving money away The do-gooder approach that you seem to advocate is fine too, as long as it isn't used to rationalize doing nothing.![]() Sounds rather cost inefficient to me, though to be fair it is better to give it away than gamble it. Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo
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ringo Member (Idle past 732 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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NoNukes writes:
I don't see the same people repeatedly. I didn't ask you to follow up on every dollar you give away. But you can follow up if you see the same people repeatedly over a period of time. What... I'm... saying... is... I don't turn somebody down just because he might use the money to buy beer or drugs. If he tells me he needs money for food or bus fare, I give him the benefit of the doubt. I don't polygraph him. I don't follow him and blacklist him if he wasn't telling the truth.
NoNukes writes:
All too often, "He'll probably spend it on drugs," is an excuse to do nothing.
As for doing nothing, no I'm not advocating that either.
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ringo Member (Idle past 732 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
In essence, I would be supporting an extended family of dysfunctional addicted adults with the nebulous hope that one day one or more of them might benefit from my hard earned funds and turn their own life around?quote:Maybe you should change the title of the thread to Faith, nebulous Hope, Charity and Belief.
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Taq Member Posts: 10385 Joined: Member Rating: 5.8
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In essence, I would be supporting an extended family of dysfunctional addicted adults with the nebulous hope that one day one or more of them might benefit from my hard earned funds and turn their own life around? From a pragmatic view, it is far more cost effecient to set a low bar for welfare recipients than it is to spend massive amounts of money making sure that the recipients are good people. You don't spend a dollar to cure a dime's worth of waste.
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Phat Member Posts: 18712 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.2 |
ringo writes: We need to be wise Stewards with the money we are given. All too often, "He'll probably spend it on drugs," is an excuse to do nothing. We don't want to hoard it or waste it. It is wise to use common sense when giving to street people. Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)
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ringo Member (Idle past 732 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Are we though? Is it wiser to give the money to a panhandler or to spend it at Starbucks?
We need to be wise Stewards with the money we are given.
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Phat Member Posts: 18712 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.2 |
Is it wiser to give the money to a panhandler or to spend it at Starbucks? Personally, I am quite frugal with my money. I try and avoid starbucks in general--it is simply too expensive. I can buy a whole can of coffee and make my own drink at home. ![]() Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
I don't see the same people repeatedly. I do.
What... I'm... saying... is... I don't turn somebody down just because he might use the money to buy beer or drugs. That's fine. Just don't make silly claims that you are helping when you do as you do. You've advanced a scenario where your trust in the person is going to elevate them somehow. I have direct experience that says it does not. And frankly there is no real evidence that you give a hoot since you don't make any effort to see the same people. But it's your money and your conscience.Je Suis Charlie Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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ringo Member (Idle past 732 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
Not everyone who says "do you have any spare change" is necessarily eligible for a gift.quote:That's God's policy. Why would you supersede it? Phat writes:
Do you?
...I obey the inner unction.quote:
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ringo Member (Idle past 732 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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NoNukes writes:
I didn't make any claim. I said that I don't like to risk not helping when a couple of dollars might help.
Just don't make silly claims that you are helping when you do as you do. NoNukes writes:
Your direct experience of a dog with three legs does not disprove the existence of dogs with four legs.
You've advanced a scenario where your trust in the person is going to elevate them somehow. I have direct experience that says it does not. NoNukes writes:
I don't need to show you any evidence that I give a hoot.
And frankly there is no real evidence that you give a hoot since you don't make any effort to see the same people.
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Phat Member Posts: 18712 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.2 |
Phat writes:
(Whereupon Ringo quotes scripture)
Not everyone who says "do you have any spare change" is necessarily eligible for a gift.quote: Ringo writes: That's God's policy. Why would you supersede it? The scripture refers to us asking God...not each other. If more street people trusted God rather than attempting to sponge money off of every driver with an extra buck in their wallet, they might get off of the streets and not become codependant on begging. Mind you, I don't look for excuses not to give, but I also don't simply hand out money to whosoever asks. That isn't wise. (whereupon ringo again quotes scripture)
quote:I wouldnt simply expect anyone and everyone to hand me money either. If I was in need and was in prayer, God would provide through His people. Edited by Phat, : addedChance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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Phat Member Posts: 18712 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.2 |
ringo writes: It depends on the moment and the circumstances. Certainly one is allowed to spend some of their money on themselves. Is it wiser to give the money to a panhandler or to spend it at Starbucks? On the other hand, let us not forget our many panhandlers...for we could end up as one of them. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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Omnivorous Member (Idle past 195 days) Posts: 4001 From: Adirondackia Joined:
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Phat writes: .(seeing how satan hates giving money away![]() That's not fair. In my experience, the devil is far more free with his cash than, say, preachers. And all those prosperity churches had to come from somewhere--Jesus wouldn't fund them. ![]() "If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."
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Phat Member Posts: 18712 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.2 |
Omni writes: A fool and his money are soon parted. And all those prosperity churches had to come from somewhere--Jesus wouldn't fund them. My ongoing point with Ringo is that one should use wisdom when giving money away. As for satan....he wont hesitate to buy you a drink, but he is more reluctant to help you move.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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Omnivorous Member (Idle past 195 days) Posts: 4001 From: Adirondackia Joined: |
Phat writes: A fool and his money are soon parted. Lovely English proverb, isn't it? More fishwife-like than Christ-like, though.
My ongoing point with Ringo[...] I noticed that ![]() [...]is that one should use wisdom when giving money away. Perhaps, like me, Ringo hears quite a bit more "use wisdom" than "give money away." Jesus certainly didn't outline a process for grading the poor to sort out the deserving. I understand that no one wants to waste money, especially what we can afford to give away. But I'm accustomed to Christians testifying about their faith in the face of great unknowns and trials, so it seems odd: face the lions with panache, sure, but follow Christ's injunction (and Christ) by helping the first and next persons you see in need of help...well, that's just too dicey. How will God know who deserves my help? How will He put them in my path? I just can't believe that bit. Consider that the person most in need of help, by your rubric, will usually be the person appearing least deserving of it. The person most eligible for help is going to look a lot like you. Should you be right, and Jesus return, which one do you think he'd look like? -------------------------------------------------- NB: Now, you know I'm not a Christian, so you're probably thinking some of that criticism just ain't fair. Well, it wasn't criticism so much as commentary on the central fault in modern Christianity--it married money. Me, I'm more pagan anarchist than anything, prone to giving money away on impulse, guilty of handing out beers to bums walking through the Fens on New Year's eve in Boston. Hell, even winos deserve a drink on New Year's eve. If I happened to run into Jesus there, I definitely gave him a beer. Edited by Omnivorous, : Nice bunch of guys, too."If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."
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