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Author Topic:   The Essence Of Faith & Belief.
Faith
Member
Posts: 33905
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 121 of 141 (765853)
08-07-2015 1:11 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by Omnivorous
08-06-2015 10:58 PM


Re: What Is Truth?
Christian mission to an African nation finances businesses for poor people, such as selling things in the local market. Discovered that although the business is successful, brings in money, and the new entrepreneur faithfully minds the store, the money he makes goes to drinking and gambling and prostitutes and his wife and children are still living at starvation level. Mission concludes that there's a cultural mindset that has to change before it makes sense to throw money at the problem.

What do you think?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Omnivorous, posted 08-06-2015 10:58 PM Omnivorous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by NoNukes, posted 08-07-2015 1:28 AM Faith has responded
 Message 124 by Omnivorous, posted 08-07-2015 6:07 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 122 of 141 (765854)
08-07-2015 1:28 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by Faith
08-07-2015 1:11 AM


Re: What Is Truth?
Mission concludes that there's a cultural mindset that has to change before it makes sense to throw money at the problem.

Sure, because we can make such conclusions about everyone in Africa on the basis of a bad result in a population of one. Best to just leave the entire continent alone now.

Would Christians really so quickly reach the conclusion that an entire continent of people are beyond their means to help?

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Faith, posted 08-07-2015 1:11 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Faith, posted 08-07-2015 1:51 AM NoNukes has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33905
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 123 of 141 (765855)
08-07-2015 1:51 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by NoNukes
08-07-2015 1:28 AM


GollyRe: What Is Truth?
You really do think I'm ****** enough to make that sort of case, and that a Christian missionary organization would draw such a ****** conclusion? I guess so. It's really rather typical of you.

This was an example given to illustrate years of experience with this sort of thing.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by NoNukes, posted 08-07-2015 1:28 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by NoNukes, posted 08-07-2015 2:48 PM Faith has responded

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3811
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 124 of 141 (765857)
08-07-2015 6:07 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by Faith
08-07-2015 1:11 AM


Re: What Is Truth?
Faith writes:

Christian mission to an African nation finances businesses for poor people, such as selling things in the local market. Discovered that although the business is successful, brings in money, and the new entrepreneur faithfully minds the store, the money he makes goes to drinking and gambling and prostitutes and his wife and children are still living at starvation level. Mission concludes that there's a cultural mindset that has to change before it makes sense to throw money at the problem.

What do you think?

I think you can still feed the wife and kid; and if there's money to be thrown, throw it at them. Also, I think the polarized pastiche you describe--the industrious entrepreneur who is also a wastrel--is not so common. But the man who finds prosperity with the help of others, thinks it's his just desserts and devotes it to selfish pursuits...well, we have lots of Christians like that here, too.

Family planning services for women are good, too, since nothing else so improves the economic lot of women and children.

As you might imagine, I have other thoughts and feelings about Christian missions, but at present I'm mulling over Phat's response to Christ's challenge to the individual Christian. Nonetheless, I find myself asking the same question, now applied to an organization: Why so little faith in the simple, direct charitable acts prescribed by Jesus?


"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Faith, posted 08-07-2015 1:11 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17673
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 125 of 141 (765886)
08-07-2015 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by Thugpreacha
08-06-2015 5:15 PM


Re: Who Chooses Which Panhandler To Help?
Phat writes:

The scripture refers to us asking God...not each other.


No, it draws a pretty distinct parallel between what we do for our own children and what God does for his children. The implication is that we should treat all people the same as we treat our children.

Phat writes:

If more street people trusted God rather than attempting to sponge money off of every driver with an extra buck in their wallet, they might get off of the streets and not become codependant on begging.


If more Christians trusted God, they might actually DO what Jesus said: sell what they have, give to the poor and follow Him.

Phat writes:

I wouldnt simply expect anyone and everyone to hand me money either. If I was in need and was in prayer, God would provide through His people.


So you wouldn't ask and receive, like Jesus said. You'd just sit and wait to receive.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Thugpreacha, posted 08-06-2015 5:15 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17673
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 126 of 141 (765887)
08-07-2015 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by Thugpreacha
08-06-2015 5:21 PM


Re: What Is Truth?
Phat writes:

ringo writes:

Is it wiser to give the money to a panhandler or to spend it at Starbucks?


It depends on the moment and the circumstances. Certainly one is allowed to spend some of their money on themselves.

Of course I spend money on myself too (though I've never been to Starbucks). But I'm the one who gets the flak when I suggest that it's okay to give money to panhandlers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Thugpreacha, posted 08-06-2015 5:21 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17673
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 127 of 141 (765888)
08-07-2015 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by Thugpreacha
08-06-2015 8:40 PM


Re: What Is Truth?
Phat writes:

My ongoing point with Ringo is that one should use wisdom when giving money away.


My ongoing point is that you seem to be squandering your "wisdom" on creative ways to circumvent Jesus' instructions. Instead of trying to weasel out of doing unto others, why not just do unto others?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Thugpreacha, posted 08-06-2015 8:40 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 128 of 141 (765898)
08-07-2015 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Faith
08-07-2015 1:51 AM


Re: GollyRe: What Is Truth?
This was an example given to illustrate years of experience with this sort of thing.

Perhaps you could have expressed something like that. If you had, I would have challenged you to provide some evidence that so few people had been helped as to make the endeavor not worthwhile.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Faith, posted 08-07-2015 1:51 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by Faith, posted 08-07-2015 3:15 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 129 of 141 (765900)
08-07-2015 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by Omnivorous
08-06-2015 10:58 PM


Re: What Is Truth?
Consider that the person most in need of help, by your rubric, will usually be the person appearing least deserving of it. The person most eligible for help is going to look a lot like you.

There is no reason to question the intent of people who behave as would ringo. Whatever the result of spontaneous giving, surely nobody intends to hurt the recipient. I've given money to panhandlers, although I do not do so routinely. On the other hand, I do give money and my time to homeless people in other situations.

What I am adamant about is that giving a panhandler pocket money in the hope that you will build up his self esteem and sense of self worth is a piss poor strategy.

It is harder to give money effectively, but it is possible. There is no reason to challenge the bona fides of people who give away amount of money similar to and perhaps even larger than the spontaneous gifts of pocket money that you can give when you encounter people face to face.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Omnivorous, posted 08-06-2015 10:58 PM Omnivorous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by Omnivorous, posted 08-07-2015 4:14 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply
 Message 137 by ringo, posted 08-08-2015 11:55 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33905
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 130 of 141 (765904)
08-07-2015 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by NoNukes
08-07-2015 2:48 PM


Re: What Is Truth?
I don't understand your level of suspiciousness and I don't feel like indulging it. I no longer have the original source, it was one article among many in one email publication among many I receive, I didn't save it, it simply fit in with this discussion so I wrote what I remember of it. Trying to answer such a level of distrust and suspiciousness is too much to ask. Sorry I posted it at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by NoNukes, posted 08-07-2015 2:48 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by NoNukes, posted 08-07-2015 3:44 PM Faith has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 131 of 141 (765907)
08-07-2015 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by Faith
08-07-2015 3:15 PM


Re: What Is Truth?
I didn't save it, it simply fit in with this discussion so I wrote what I remember of it. Trying to answer such a level of distrust and suspiciousness is too much to ask. Sorry I posted it at all.

The problem here is not just a matter of evidence. The problem is that your conclusion is diametrically opposed to how Jesus has instructed us to act. And there is also the issue that Africa is very large and a huge amount of discussion is necessary before I conclude that an experiment applies to all of Africa or to an entire nation of Africa. So yes I am going to insist on details.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Faith, posted 08-07-2015 3:15 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Faith, posted 08-07-2015 9:10 PM NoNukes has responded

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3811
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 132 of 141 (765909)
08-07-2015 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by NoNukes
08-07-2015 2:55 PM


Re: What Is Truth?
I wasn't disparaging ringo's giving or any other kind of giving. I was exploring the likely results of Phat's criteria for determining who merits help. I don't think he's substituting pro bono work, targeted donations or soup kitchen drudgery for spontaneous empathy.

I salute all who give. I was pawing after the whiff of hypocrisy, not the scent of difference.


"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by NoNukes, posted 08-07-2015 2:55 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33905
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 133 of 141 (765930)
08-07-2015 9:10 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by NoNukes
08-07-2015 3:44 PM


Re: What Is Truth?
So you justify your suspiciousness, so what else is new.

Surely we should be careful about giving to ALL who ask. Should we give money to people who use it to finance terrorism, or to organizations that abort babies?

By the way, aren't you the one who has so often said it isn't a good idea just to give money without knowing how it is going to be used or something like that?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by NoNukes, posted 08-07-2015 3:44 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by NoNukes, posted 08-07-2015 11:14 PM Faith has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 134 of 141 (765935)
08-07-2015 11:14 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by Faith
08-07-2015 9:10 PM


Re: What Is Truth?
Should we give money to people who use it to finance terrorism, or to organizations that abort babies?

Faith, you should do what you will with your money. But you are asking questions that are not even relevant to the discussion. If you want to bring it closer to the topic, you might ask whether you should make sure that a mother has never had an abortion or divorce before you give her money. I doubt that it would occur to most of us to ask such a question.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Faith, posted 08-07-2015 9:10 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by Faith, posted 08-07-2015 11:37 PM NoNukes has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33905
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 135 of 141 (765937)
08-07-2015 11:37 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by NoNukes
08-07-2015 11:14 PM


Re: What Is Truth?
Ridiculous questions nobody would ask because they are not relevant to the question of giving money.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by NoNukes, posted 08-07-2015 11:14 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by NoNukes, posted 08-08-2015 1:37 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
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