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Author Topic:   Ontological arguments - where's the beef?
Posts: 15801
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003

Message 3 of 74 (631881)
09-04-2011 3:53 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by cavediver
09-03-2011 4:59 PM

All Things Possible
- If a maximally great being exists in some possible world, then it exists in every possible world.
Is this referring to the whole multiverse idea, where all possible worlds exist?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by cavediver, posted 09-03-2011 4:59 PM cavediver has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by cavediver, posted 09-04-2011 11:09 AM Phat has not yet responded

Posts: 15801
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003

Message 38 of 74 (632229)
09-06-2011 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by bluegenes
09-04-2011 2:23 PM

Can human wisdom cause a Deity not to exist?
bluegenes writes:

-If it is possible that a maximally great being doesn't exist, then in at least one possible world no such being would be necessary.

-By definition, in order to be maximally great, the being must necessarily exist in all possible worlds.

-Therefore, a maximally great being cannot exist in any world it if could not exist in one.

Taking a non critical position that the Bible contains wisdom, I will quote a couple of passages from Revelation: (Default position: Assuming a spiritual reality exists and that humans have, for the moment, freewill)

Rev 1:4-5---
Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. (NIV)

...seems to indicate a God who is (present moment) and who was (either forever or at a set past moment) and who is to come (indicating a point in the future)..... and from Jesus...firstborn from the dead (indicating a human who was born and then died)

Rev 1:8---
"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."
Sounds like the father God talking at us there! Never born, never dies, exists in this particular world....right? (given that the people of that time knew of no other worlds anyway. )

Rev 1:12-15
I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and among the lampstands was someone "like a son of man," dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire.
Sounds like a human, or at least an observable character....

Rev 1:17-18
When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

For all you Trinitarian fans out there, we have two characters...both first and lasts. One died and is now alive. One just plain existed from all eternity... Now lets add the villain!

Rev 11:7 writes:

7 Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.

Now we have this beast. Funny...we also have a dragon.

Rev 12:7-9-- And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down-that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Rev 13:1-6 writes:

-- And the dragon stood on the shore of the sea.

And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. He had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on his horns, and on each head a blasphemous name. 2 The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority. .

OK, so without getting too interpretive, it seems we have our showdown. A God who exists in all possible worlds..and His son who died and yet lives. A Dragon who got kicked out of heaven and who has his boy, the Beast. Now for the verse that illustrates my point!

Rev 17:8 writes:

The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come.

Interestingly, we have two contradictions. One was, is, and will come. The other was, is not and yet will come.

The onus of existing in all possible worlds except one, to me, means that the people themselves decide by their beliefs if said Deity need exist in their world or not.

What would be some reasons that a Deity would be unnecessary?

Could a Deity exist despite my belief that such a critter is un necessary?

By declaring a Deity un necessary, am I worshiping a Beast, or, at this present moment, such a critter is also un necessary??

Just some food for thought!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by bluegenes, posted 09-04-2011 2:23 PM bluegenes has not yet responded

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