Ontological arguments - where's the beef?

Is it?

Heh - since when has reality had to conform to our ideas of reasonableness!?I question the claim that it is possible that a maximally great being exists, and want to see the argument, along with the evidence which confirms it is possible. It's the old equivocation between 'possible' meaning 'could be true, but we don't know' and the meaning 'not ruled out by what we do know'.The MGB is not ruled out by what we do know, but there is nothing that we do know that rules it in as a possibility. So hence why I question the first premise. It might be possible, but no argument or evidence has been put forward to suggest that it actually is. As proofs go, since it relies on this premise, it falls flat on its face in the most spectacular way.I can provide proof that it is possible to draw a King of Hearts from a standard deck of cards. Can anyone provide similar proof that an MGB could exist?

No. I'm suggesting that if one asserts something is possible, one needs to support that it is in fact possible with evidence. And so it would be right to challenge anybody that claims they are possible.

No. It is neither ruled out nor ruled in. Nothing we know says that it is impossible and nothing we know says it is possible. That doesn't imply God is possible. Because there are things that exist that are not consistent with an eternal character? I'm sorry that is a non-sequitur. What is a base possibility?Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

It depends on the thing under question, but I gave the example of a pack of cards.If you want to complain that in the case of a MGB it is difficult or impossible to prove it is possible then that's not my problem since I'm not the one claiming that it is possible.

No, that's not correct. You must have misunderstood my terms. Unfortunately, since you did not bother to explain in this post I cannot attempt to explain your misunderstanding.

Yes, that's the equivocation. Just because we don't know that it is impossible does not mean that we therefore know it is possible. Why? That's the part you've skipped over. What is it about the nature of things, change, disorder and chaos and eventually death says that God is possible. Be explicit. I don't assume the universe is eternal in nature. Why does it logically follow from this that an eternal God is possible? Please show me the logic, not the assertions. I've not asserted that it is not a reasonable possibility, I've asked for those that have asserted that it is a possibility to show that it is a possibility. Correct. We can do the maths, to show that it is possible and with what probability. Can you do the math to show that God is possible?Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

Do you know that it is not impossible. If you do, how have you established that? It's the same question, asked with the negatives, as 'how do you know that it is possible?'So how do you know that it is not impossible? Establishing that it doesn't contradict itself doesn't show that it is in fact possible. It might be possible, but then again, it might be impossible. If it was self-contradictory, it would definitely be impossible. If it is not self-contradictory, it still might not be possible (other facts may rule it out).Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

There is a third option: We do not know if it is possible or impossible. Neither has been established and so neither should be claimed.I do not claim that God is impossible. I just claim that it has not been sufficiently established that it is possible.

I know based on the evidence that I am holding a standard pack of cards. I might be wrong, of course. No, I just ask that if you are going to say it is possible, you have to show that it's possible.In order to know it is possible that I pull out the King of Hearts all I have to do is show that by the rules of card markings, one of the cards must be the King of Hearts. There are four suits in a standard deck, hearts is amongst them. They are labelled A-10 then J Q K. Therefore, amongst the possibility space for a deck of cards is one that has the heart suit with the King rank. With some reasonable tentativity we now know it is possible.In order to know if God is possible, you have to know the rules that govern reality. From those rules you should be able to see if God is permitted by them. If God is permitted by the rules of reality, then it is indeed possible, within realms of reasonable tentativity.That is a difficult task, of course, but if you aren't up for the challenge, I urge you to take back the claim that God is possible and instead use the phrase 'God is not ruled out by anything we know', which is the more correct phrasing and consequently dissolves the ontological argument.