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Author Topic:   Ontological arguments - where's the beef?
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 486 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 16 of 74 (632134)
09-05-2011 9:18 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Modulous
09-05-2011 4:48 PM


Re: my short response:
The MGB is not ruled out by what we do know, but there is nothing that we do know that rules it in as a possibility.

Your above comment seems contradictory even on the surface, does it not? However

if we are only speaking of possibilites, then the thing that would rule it in as a possibility would be the nature of things, change, disorder and chaos and eventually death

if we compare the universe to the deck of cards, then there is the very real consideration that those things mentioned are not consistent with anything eternal in character

So it seems if we are speaking of possibilites, then there is a very good possibility that the MGB does exist

If we are only considering base possibilites

Dawn Bertot


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Modulous, posted 09-05-2011 4:48 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Modulous, posted 09-06-2011 10:30 AM Dawn Bertot has responded

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 486 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 40 of 74 (632255)
09-06-2011 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Modulous
09-06-2011 10:30 AM


Re: my short response:
No. It is neither ruled out nor ruled in. Nothing we know says that it is impossible and nothing we know says it is possible.

Still this sentence makes no sense. If it is not impossible of course its possible

If by MGB you mean an eternal God, then of course my argument would be valid. If by MGB you mean something less than an eternal God, then of course that being already exists, whether its George Bush or some alien with the most power

either way its very possible

Because there are things that exist that are not consistent with an eternal character? I'm sorry that is a non-sequitur.

Of course its not. Until you can demonstrate, prove the universe is eternal in character, there is very little reason to assume it is, given its nature, so logically the reasonable possibilty is an eternal God

It would be unreasonable to assume IT came from absolute nothingness

I dont see how thats not atleast a reasonsble possibility. Atleast you havent did anything except assert it is not

If its not impossible to draw all Aces out of your deck ten consecutively, then that means its possible, regardless of how ever improbable, correct
Dawn Bertot

Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Modulous, posted 09-06-2011 10:30 AM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Modulous, posted 09-06-2011 4:40 PM Dawn Bertot has responded
 Message 52 by Taq, posted 09-07-2011 4:11 PM Dawn Bertot has not yet responded

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 486 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 42 of 74 (632257)
09-06-2011 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Modulous
09-06-2011 4:40 PM


Re: my short response:
If its not impossible to draw all Aces out of your deck ten times consecutively, then that means its possible, regardless of how ever improbable, correct?

Ill get to your other post in a few

Dawn Bertot


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Modulous, posted 09-06-2011 4:40 PM Modulous has acknowledged this reply

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 486 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 43 of 74 (632258)
09-06-2011 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Modulous
09-06-2011 4:40 PM


Re: my short response:
Yes, that's the equivocation. Just because we don't know that it is impossible does not mean that we therefore know it is possible.

This statement is less an equivocation and more of a logical contradiction. if something is not impossible, what other area could it fall in except possible. That is even if you dont see the possiblity, how could it be anything less than possible

Oh no here we go again

Dawn Bertot


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Modulous, posted 09-06-2011 4:40 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Modulous, posted 09-06-2011 5:24 PM Dawn Bertot has responded

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 486 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 44 of 74 (632259)
09-06-2011 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Modulous
09-06-2011 4:40 PM


Re: my short response:
I've not asserted that it is not a reasonable possibility, I've asked for those that have asserted that it is a possibility to show that it is a possibility.

I believe that is all that is involved in showing it is possible, is to demonstrate it is only one of two choices and it doesnt directly contradict itself. What more do I need for it to show that its a possibility


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Modulous, posted 09-06-2011 4:40 PM Modulous has acknowledged this reply

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 486 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 47 of 74 (632266)
09-06-2011 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Modulous
09-06-2011 5:24 PM


Re: my short response:
Establishing that it doesn't contradict itself doesn't show that it is in fact possible

It does if its only one of two possibilites, there is nothing left, atleast logically

I dont see how it could be otherwise, other than to simply disagree, which you are doing and that is fine, but its not an actual argument to demonstrate that its not true, 'possible' that is

Simple disagrement is not the same as showing that possible does not mean possible, even if you disagree with its tenets leading to that conclusion. The fact that it is possible is enough to demonstrate that the possibility is real in and of itself, without corroborating evidence to your approval

Huuuh, Whaaaat?

Dawn Bertot


This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Modulous, posted 09-06-2011 5:24 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Modulous, posted 09-07-2011 11:27 AM Dawn Bertot has not yet responded

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 486 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 48 of 74 (632268)
09-06-2011 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Modulous
09-06-2011 5:24 PM


Re: my short response:
Establishing that it doesn't contradict itself doesn't show that it is in fact possible

It does if its only one of two possibilites, there is nothing left, atleast logically

I dont see how it could be otherwise, other than to simply disagree, which you are doing and that is fine, but its not an actual argument to demonstrate that its not true, 'possible' that is

Simple disagrement is not the same as showing that possible does not mean possible, even if you disagree with its tenets leading to that conclusion. The fact that it is possible is enough to demonstrate that the possibility is real in and of itself, without corroborating evidence to your approval

Huuuh, Whaaaat?

Dawn Bertot


This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Modulous, posted 09-06-2011 5:24 PM Modulous has acknowledged this reply

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 486 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 49 of 74 (632269)
09-06-2011 6:51 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Modulous
09-06-2011 5:24 PM


Re: my short response:
Do you know that it is not impossible.

Yes, by the mere fact that things exist at all and knowing it is only one of two rational explanations

It impossible for both of those two to be impossible. hence since either is possible both are possible,

without further investigation or someones approval

Dawn Bertot


This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Modulous, posted 09-06-2011 5:24 PM Modulous has acknowledged this reply

  
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