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Author | Topic: Importance of Original Sin | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jaywill Member (Idle past 1961 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
How did God make any kind of a sacrifice? If I could resurrect I'd be dying to help people a dozen times every day. You do have that chance. You do have the opportunity to put reality on that boast. I don't mean actual physical dying as when your heart stops beating. But receiving Jesus will afford you many opportunities to say "No" to your old nature and "Yes" to Christ living within you. Immediately something as death and resurrection occurs and Jesus Christ flows out through your soul to touch others. I am serious. And the wonderful thing is that the more you deny your soul-life in favor of allowing the life giving Spirit of Christ to flow out of you, each time results in a transformation of your soul into Christ likeness. So this is why our Christian brother the Apostle Paul pioneered the way and told us that he died DAILY -
quote: Everyday Paul had opportunity to die and be resurrected in his psychological and spiritual being. Here again this pioneer in the Christian life told us that he lived a life of dying to his old self and living in the new man united with Jesus -
quote: Paul says that he does not nullify the grace of God. What is this grace of God ? It is that Jesus Christ is alive and available and in a form in which He can enter into a man's innermost spiritual being in reality. Then the man can not just enjoy a new birth but a new growth, new development, new maturation, a new process of learning to die to the old life and live in the sphere of God united with his being. So when you confidently boast that you could gladly die and be raised for the benefit of others, believe me, you do have ample opportunity to live a crucified and resurrected daily life in Jesus. And you could demonstrate this by being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ receiving Him as Lord. This simple act of baptism is one of the few Christian symbols ordained in the New Testament. It portrays your decision to die with Christ, be buried with Christ, and be raised with Christ in faith and utter identification, even as Paul confessed - My ego is given over to the Lord Jesus Christ. His death and resurrection I by faith count as my dying to the old Adamic nature and living again in the new nature - a divine / human nature imparted into me by my receiving Jesus as Lord.
" The last Adam became a life giving Spirrit " (1 Cor. 15:45) The last Adam - Christ, concluded the whole race of Adam and his downward decline away from God. The last Adam - Christ is the second man, the new Head of a new humanity. And in His resurrection He became a God giving, life giving, Holy Spirit giving, grace conveying, new nature empowering Spirit. Those are not just words now. This is real. The last Adam, Jesus Christ, rose and became a life giving Spirit to dispense Himself into all who believe in Him and receive Him.
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Diomedes Member Posts: 995 From: Central Florida, USA Joined: |
Faith writes:
Read that again and see if it still makes sense to you, because it doesn't to me. It's only by being born in sin and then saved by grace that we are guaranteed a new nature that cannot sin again. Something to do with the nature of things. What is also interesting about that viewpoint is that one of the main things I have always heard is that good/evil and the choices between the two is a major predicate of our 'free will' mechanism. Which is why god created both. So ultimately, as indicated by Christian doctrine, we reach a point (being saved) where our inherently 'sinful nature' no longer manifests, does that not in and of itself indicate we will lose free will once that occurs?"Our future lies not in our dogmatic past, but in our enlightened present"
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
jaywill writes:
I do.
ringo writes:
You do have that chance. You do have the opportunity to put reality on that boast. How did God make any kind of a sacrifice? If I could resurrect I'd be dying to help people a dozen times every day. I don't mean actual physical dying as when your heart stops beating. jaywill writes:
That's not what I'm talking about at all. Phat claimed that God made a "sacrifice" by having His son die to help people. I said that I'm willing to make the same sacrifice every day. Of course, I'd have to be able to resurrect in order to do it more than once - and the power of resurrection nullifies the "sacrifice" of dying.
But receiving Jesus will afford you many opportunities to say "No" to your old nature and "Yes" to Christ living within you. jaywill writes:
If Christians really did that, it would show in their behaviour, wouldn't it? What I've been saying all along is that it's the ones who have the "resurrected' behaviour who are really the followers of Jesus, whether they're professing Christians or not - and the ones who don't have the "resurrected" behaviour are not real followers of Jesus, whether they are professing Christians or not.
So when you confidently boast that you could gladly die and be raised for the benefit of others, believe me, you do have ample opportunity to live a crucified and resurrected daily life in Jesus. jaywill writes:
An even better demonstration would be to actually do what Jesus asked us to do - feed the hungry, etc. Baptism is a profession of faith, not a demonstration of faith.
And you could demonstrate this by being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ receiving Him as Lord. jaywill writes:
They are just words unless you do instead of just mouthing the words.
Those are not just words now.
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1961 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
That's not what I'm talking about at all. Phat claimed that God made a "sacrifice" by having His son die to help people. I said that I'm willing to make the same sacrifice every day. Of course, I'd have to be able to resurrect in order to do it more than once - and the power of resurrection nullifies the "sacrifice" of dying. I understand what you said. You do not understand what I am saying and what the New Testament is saying in this regard. You don't have any experience of what I am saying.And you do not understand me. It is not a matter of more intelligence needed as if you are not smart enough to read and comprehend words. It is a matter of having no experience because of no revelation or obedience to that revelation. Maybe someday you will understand.
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Dawn Bertot Member (Idle past 103 days) Posts: 3571 Joined: |
remember, you have to understand that in judaism, the law is above god; it is a contract that binds both parties to their individual terms. Perhaps in Judasim the law is above God, but one would be hard pressed to find any support for that in the scriptures. Gods barttering with Abraham is no different than him wrestinling with Jacob I dont think it was to see if Jacob could take him in a throw down, but to teach Jacob something about Gods purposes and infinite wisdom The wrestling matches with Abraham and Jacob were for thier benifits, no to teach an omniscient God something If you would simply stop projecting human wisdom on to the scriptures and look at what the totality of scripture has to say about God, you will stop coming up with silly conclusions about Gods character Dawn Bertot
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
jaywill writes:
It isn't that i don't understand what you're saying. I disagree with what you're saying - and both the Old Testament and the New Testament disagree with what you're saying, as I've shown.
You do not understand what I am saying and what the New Testament is saying in this regard.
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Dawn Bertot Member (Idle past 103 days) Posts: 3571 Joined: |
I said that I'm willing to make the same sacrifice every day. Of course, I'd have to be able to resurrect in order to do it more than once - and the power of resurrection nullifies the "sacrifice" of dying. I dont want to interupt you and Jaywills coversating (thats Ubonics for conversation BTW) and while am sure jaywill, is on the high ground concerning death and sacrifice, let me just address your above comment In a few words your above comment is Buffalo Chips. In the first place God has his only begotten Son endure this, would you be as willing to follow through withit if it involved your flesh and blood Secondly, saying you would actually do this, then repeating it over and over, would be a task in and of itself When we are not actually in pain or suffering, its always easy to speak avout what we would or would not do Here is an illustration. A day or so ago, I had a tooth that was killing me. It hurt so bad all I could do is think about getting out of that pain. Nothing else mattered I dont think you actually understand what Christ or anyone else endured by crucifiction and what preceeded it. You have to understand that when people see comments like yours Ringo, it makes you appear completley silly Imagine someone said to you we want to borrow your son or daughter, now we will give them back, but we are going to subject them to the most cruel punishment and tourture, but I promise we will return them to you. Would you agree to it. Of course resurrection dosent, nullify the sacrifice, it validates it Dawn Bertot Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Dawn Bertot writes:
That's exactly what I said. I would gladly sacrifice my own flesh and blood every day if I knew I would be resurrected. I'm sure most decent humans would do the same. That's no sacrifice at all.
ringo writes:
In the first place God has his only begotten Son endure this, would you be as willing to follow through withit if it involved your flesh and blood I said that I'm willing to make the same sacrifice every day. Of course, I'd have to be able to resurrect in order to do it more than once - and the power of resurrection nullifies the "sacrifice" of dying. Dawn Bertot writes:
We're not talking about pain. As you said yourself, people endure pain every day. What we're talking about here is dying and rising from the dead. (If anything, the temporary death would be a welcome relief from the pain.)
I dont think you actually understand what Christ or anyone else endured by crucifiction and what preceeded it. Dawn Bertot writes:
You have the Bible story backwards. The equivalent would be me offering my child to be tortured and killed in return for some service that I would perform. I would perform the service without subjecting my child to pain and death.
Imagine someone said to you we want to borrow your son or daughter, now we will give them back, but we are going to subject them to the most cruel punishment and tourture, but I promise we will return them to you. Would you agree to it.
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Dawn Bertot Member (Idle past 103 days) Posts: 3571 Joined: |
That's exactly what I said. I would gladly sacrifice my own flesh and blood every day if I knew I would be resurrected. I'm sure most decent humans would do the same. That's no sacrifice at all. Im sure anyone can fathom or imagine what they might do in any given situation. And giving ones life might even be a proposition one would consider. Its not a matter of what you might do or what you think you can do, but what you would actually do. All of the disciples were confident that in that moment they would not recant, but all of them did when real death, painful death was starring them in the face. Im sure I would have folded like a Halmark card Your wrong, its always a sacrifice, no matter what the other end or outcome will be
We're not talking about pain. As you said yourself, people endure pain every day. What we're talking about here is dying and rising from the dead. (If anything, the temporary death would be a welcome relief from the pain.) Of course we are talking about pain,, thats the point. Sure theres always, the higher moral ground, but getting there is ALWAYS the Point, Ringo. I did not say, people live with pain everyday, I said people will do anything to get out of pain, thats the point. Sure if I could be instantly dispatched without even the hint of suffering, then resurrected, that might be a consideration. That is not what's at stake If someone told me I needed to suffer unbearably, daily for you, to remain alive, Id say quickly, we had better start looking for other options
You have the Bible story backwards. The equivalent would be me offering my child to be tortured and killed in return for some service that I would perform. I would perform the service without subjecting my child to pain and death. Yes and I was following your lead as to what you had already commented. Introducing your or my child, gives the Biblical narrative even more valididty. Now I already know Im not going to do for you personally, lets not even, talk about what I would NOT do for you concerning one of my children See how the Biblical narrative starts to take on even more validation Again, what you may or may not do in your imagination, is presently, Buffalo Chips, its not reality Lets use a simple illustration. As men we all have those nutty imaginations, about what we might or might not do in any given situation. We actually carry them out in our mind. A confrontation with another fellow, a road rage, situation, home invasion, etc We all go through the whole process in our mind, but when the actual situation arises, we very rarely act like Chuck Norris or James Bond. We cease up, lock up, pass out, or something of that sort Many of the early Christians did recant, in the face of very violent and painful death, I have no doubt I would have been amoung that number Its easy to speak about what you wouuld do from the safety of your comfortable home in front of your computer Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given. Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given. Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Dawn Bertot writes:
You're still missing the point. If the disciples had known they would be resurrected they would have been less likely to recant.
All of the disciples were confident that in that moment they would not recant, but all of them did when real death, painful death was starring them in the face. Dawn Bertot writes:
But that isn't true. People will not do "anything" to get out of pain. To use your own example, people will not sacrifice their own children to get out of pain. On the contrary, they will willingly endure pain for their children's sake. And again, they would be willing to endure much more if they were assured that there would be no permanent injury or death.
I did not say, people live with pain everyday, I said people will do anything to get out of pain, thats the point. Dawn Bertot writes:
Again, that isn't true. Every day there are soldiers, police officers, firefighters, etc. risking their lives and enduring pain and hardship to help other people. They do it willingly, voluntarily. We all go through the whole process in our mind, but when the actual situation arises, we very rarely act like Chuck Norris or James Bond. Yes, they are making a sacrifice. That sacrifice would be less, not more, if every one of them rose from the dead.
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Dawn Bertot Member (Idle past 103 days) Posts: 3571 Joined: |
You're still missing the point. If the disciples had known they would be resurrected they would have been less likely to recant. Well this is a curiously odd statement, seeing that most of the disciples, were of the Pharisee persuasion, which means that they already believed in an after life and resurrection. Consider Martha's statement to Jesus about Lazurus. "I know Lord he will be raised on the last day".. "Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:" John 11:25 No Ringo they recanted for fear of the immediate, clear and present danger, of touture, mutilation and unimaginable pain
But that isn't true. People will not do "anything" to get out of pain. To use your own example, people will not sacrifice their own children to get out of pain. On the contrary, they will willingly endure pain for their children's sake. And again, they would be willing to endure much more if they were assured that there would be no permanent injury or death. Of course there is difference as to what you would do for your children and of course there is a difference when you have no choice. The choice is not yours But look what happens when you are given a choice. Yours again is an odd statement. There is always permanent pain, injury and death, where there is pain, injury or death, resurrection notwithstanding
Again, that isn't true. Every day there are soldiers, police officers, firefighters, etc. risking their lives and enduring pain and hardship to help other people. They do it willingly, voluntarily. Yes, they are making a sacrifice. That sacrifice would be less, not more, if every one of them rose from the dead. No one is questioning these groups of peoples contribution, but there is a qualitative difference in knowing absolutely something is about to happen, knowing all the very specfic gruesom details, verses just the the likelihood that things were possible Sitting in a prison cell knowing you are about to torn apart by wild beasts, lit as a torch, disembowled, etc, is much different than, just assuming something may or may not happen, on the beat. Again I dont mean to imply they do not provide a great service, but I am sure if you asked an officer, had he exact foreknowledge of what was going to happen that day, he may alter his plans accordingly See thats the point, Jesus didnt alter his plans and he didnt tap out I think you are greatly confusing the head knowledge about resurrection, with what actual fear and concerns exist in those situations Resurrection will happen wheather I believe or not. It would be a sacrifce whether there was or was not a reusurrection The only factor in those extreme situations, is do I have faith in God, to carry me through that situation. Im sure alot of people (like yourself) would be convinced in thier own minds, long before the actual events, that they would actually be able to die a horrible death, for people they dont even know. Its one thing to talk about it, another to actually follow through with it Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given. Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given. Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given. Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given. Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given. Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Dawn Bertot writes:
We're not talking about an afterlife; we're talking about a resurrection in this life, like Jesus.
... most of the disciples, were of the Pharisee persuasion, which means that they already believed in an after life and resurrection. Dawn Bertot writes:
There is no indication of that in the story of Jesus' death and resurrection. He had the marks of his injuries but there is no mention of residual pain or dysfunction.
There is always permanent pain, injury and death, where there is pain, injury or death, resurrection notwithstanding Dawn Bertot writes:
Nobody ever has "exact foreknowledge". The police officer, firefighter or soldier knows the probability that they will be injured or killed but they do what they do regardless of the risk.
Again I dont mean to imply they do not provide a great service, but I am sure if you asked an officer, had he exact foreknowledge of what was going to happen that day, he may alter his plans according Dawn Bertot writes:
Actually, it's just the opposite. Most people don't know what they can do until the situation arises. Soldiers don't go into battle believing they can endure pain and hardship, yet they do endure pain and hardship for their comrades and for complete strangers too. Im sure alot of people (like yourself) would be convinced in thier own minds, long before the actual events, that they would actually be able to die a horrible death, for people they dont even know. Jesus' "sacrifice" was far from unique.
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jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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ringo writes: Jesus' "sacrifice" was far from unique. If by "sacrifice" you mean crucifixion then folk need to remember that at least two others suffered the same death on the same day in the same city and an unknown number of others likely died similar deaths across the Roman Empire that day.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Dawn Bertot Member (Idle past 103 days) Posts: 3571 Joined: |
We're not talking about an afterlife; we're talking about a resurrection in this life, like Jesus." What a bizzare statement. So resurrection is before or during life, not after life. Any way you cut it its after "life" You seem to be unable to focus on one point. Your contention was that the disciples, had they believed in resurrection, they may not have recanted. Since it is clear they did, this did not make difference for some. Proving my point that unless you are actually in that situation, you dont actually know what you will do. proving my point that your boast, is dung hill paste
There is no indication of that in the story of Jesus' death and resurrection. He had the marks of his injuries but there is no mention of residual pain or dysfunction. I was talking about while the process was taking place. There was actual unbearable pain, very real injury and very real death You see youve got it all backwards. Resurrection was not his motivation for the sacrifice, it was surprisingly your and my worthless buts. Jesus had very real head knowledge of the resurrection in the garden, but asked for this cup to pass from him,because he knew what the "cup" involved So where is the empty threat or boast by you that you would do this time after time, if it meant, saving peoples lives You have very real head knowledge NOW, that you could save peoples lives in other countries, without fear of death, why dont you go do this now? Why? simply because you dont want to, correct? You have a certain amount of fear and reservation. Could you imagine what your fear would involve if you were faced with what the early Christians had to endure
Nobody ever has "exact foreknowledge". The police officer, firefighter or soldier knows the probability that they will be injured or killed but they do what they do regardless of the risk. The earliest Christians did
Actually, it's just the opposite. Most people don't know what they can do until the situation arises. Well I guess we have come full circle in this part of the discussion, because you now seem to be admitting atleast indirectly that your boast was ill concieved and made in haste Thanks for that indirect admission. See you around the board Dawn Bertot Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given. Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given. Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given. Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Dawn Bertot writes:
My contention is that few people would take a temporary death as seriously as a permanent one. That also implies that few people take the idea of a woo-woo "afterlife" very seriously.
Your contention was that the disciples, had they believed in resurrection, they may not have recanted. Dawn Bertot writes:
But your point is wrong, as demonstrated. People (soldiers, police officers, firefighters, etc.) do risk their lives - many of them not believing in a woo-woo "afterlife" - for causes which they consider worthwhile. An individual person might not know what he/she "would" do in advance but humans collectively do behave as they do.
Proving my point that unless you are actually in that situation, you dont actually know what you will do. Daen Bertot writes:
You're embellishing. Jesus actually died faster than most crucifixion victims. He didn't even have any broken bones.
ringo writes:
I was talking about while the process was taking place. There was actual unbearable pain, very real injury
There is no indication of that in the story of Jesus' death and resurrection. He had the marks of his injuries but there is no mention of residual pain or dysfunction. Dawn Bertot writes:
Sez you. The story doesn't say why he wanted to avoid death. He may have been as unsure of the resurrection as anybody else.
Jesus had very real head knowledge of the resurrection in the garden, but asked for this cup to pass from him,because he knew what the "cup" involved Dawn Bertot writes:
What makes you think I don't?
You have very real head knowledge NOW, that you could save peoples lives in other countries, without fear of death, why dont you go do this now? Dawn Bertot writes:
Read more carefully. I have said throughout that people "would" willingly risk their lives for others, with or without the possibility of resurrection. And I am saying that people "can" do even more than they think they "would" do. ringo writes:
Well I guess we have come full circle in this part of the discussion, because you now seem to be admitting atleast indirectly that your boast was ill concieved and made in haste
Actually, it's just the opposite. Most people don't know what they can do until the situation arises. The will to try precedes the ability to do but the ability to do surpasses the will.
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