Importance of Original Sin

You do have that chance. You do have the opportunity to put reality on that boast.I don't mean actual physical dying as when your heart stops beating. But receiving Jesus will afford you many opportunities to say "No" to your old nature and "Yes" to Christ living within you.Immediately something as death and resurrection occurs and Jesus Christ flows out through your soul to touch others.I am serious.And the wonderful thing is that the more you deny your soul-life in favor of allowing the life giving Spirit of Christ to flow out of you, each time results in a transformation of your soul into Christ likeness.So this is why our Christian brother the Apostle Paul pioneered the way and told us that he died DAILY -

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"I protest by the boasting in you, brothers, which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily." (1 Cor. 15:31)

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Everyday Paul had opportunity to die and be resurrected in his psychological and spiritual being.Here again this pioneer in the Christian life told us that he lived a life of dying to his old self and living in the new man united with Jesus -

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" I am crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me; and the life which I now ive in the flesh I live in faith, the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

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I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness is through law, then Christ died for nothing." (Galatians 2:20,21)

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Paul says that he does not nullify the grace of God. What is this grace of God ? It is that Jesus Christ is alive and available and in a form in which He can enter into a man's innermost spiritual being in reality. Then the man can not just enjoy a new birth but a new growth, new development, new maturation, a new process of learning to die to the old life and live in the sphere of God united with his being.So when you confidently boast that you could gladly die and be raised for the benefit of others, believe me, you do have ample opportunity to live a crucified and resurrected daily life in Jesus.And you could demonstrate this by being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ receiving Him as Lord. This simple act of baptism is one of the few Christian symbols ordained in the New Testament.It portrays your decision to die with Christ, be buried with Christ, and be raised with Christ in faith and utter identification, even as Paul confessed -My ego is given over to the Lord Jesus Christ. His death and resurrection I by faith count as my dying to the old Adamic nature and living again in the new nature - a divine / human nature imparted into me by my receiving Jesus as Lord. " The last Adam became a life giving Spirrit " (1 Cor. 15:45) The last Adam - Christ, concluded the whole race of Adam and his downward decline away from God.The last Adam - Christ is the second man, the new Head of a new humanity. And in His resurrection He became a God giving, life giving, Holy Spirit giving, grace conveying, new nature empowering Spirit.Those are not just words now. This is real. The last Adam, Jesus Christ, rose and became a life giving Spirit to dispense Himself into all who believe in Him and receive Him.

What is also interesting about that viewpoint is that one of the main things I have always heard is that good/evil and the choices between the two is a major predicate of our 'free will' mechanism. Which is why god created both.So ultimately, as indicated by Christian doctrine, we reach a point (being saved) where our inherently 'sinful nature' no longer manifests, does that not in and of itself indicate we will lose free will once that occurs?

I do. That's not what I'm talking about at all. Phat claimed that God made a "sacrifice" by having His son die to help people. I said that I'm willing to make the same sacrifice every day. Of course, I'd have to be able to resurrect in order to do it more than once - and the power of resurrection nullifies the "sacrifice" of dying. If Christians really did that, it would show in their behaviour, wouldn't it? What I've been saying all along is that it's the ones who have the "resurrected' behaviour who are really the followers of Jesus, whether they're professing Christians or not - and the ones who don't have the "resurrected" behaviour are not real followers of Jesus, whether they are professing Christians or not. An even better demonstration would be to actually do what Jesus asked us to do - feed the hungry, etc. Baptism is a profession of faith, not a demonstration of faith. They are just words unless you do instead of just mouthing the words.

I understand what you said.You do not understand what I am saying and what the New Testament is saying in this regard.You don't have any experience of what I am saying.
And you do not understand me.
It is not a matter of more intelligence needed as if you are not smart enough to read and comprehend words. It is a matter of having no experience because of no revelation or obedience to that revelation.Maybe someday you will understand.

Perhaps in Judasim the law is above God, but one would be hard pressed to find any support for that in the scriptures. Gods barttering with Abraham is no different than him wrestinling with JacobI dont think it was to see if Jacob could take him in a throw down, but to teach Jacob something about Gods purposes and infinite wisdomThe wrestling matches with Abraham and Jacob were for thier benifits, no to teach an omniscient God somethingIf you would simply stop projecting human wisdom on to the scriptures and look at what the totality of scripture has to say about God, you will stop coming up with silly conclusions about Gods characterDawn Bertot

It isn't that i don't understand what you're saying. I disagree with what you're saying - and both the Old Testament and the New Testament disagree with what you're saying, as I've shown.

I dont want to interupt you and Jaywills coversating (thats Ubonics for conversation BTW) and while am sure jaywill, is on the high ground concerning death and sacrifice, let me just address your above commentIn a few words your above comment is Buffalo Chips. In the first place God has his only begotten Son endure this, would you be as willing to follow through withit if it involved your flesh and bloodSecondly, saying you would actually do this, then repeating it over and over, would be a task in and of itselfWhen we are not actually in pain or suffering, its always easy to speak avout what we would or would not doHere is an illustration. A day or so ago, I had a tooth that was killing me. It hurt so bad all I could do is think about getting out of that pain. Nothing else matteredI dont think you actually understand what Christ or anyone else endured by crucifiction and what preceeded it.You have to understand that when people see comments like yours Ringo, it makes you appear completley sillyImagine someone said to you we want to borrow your son or daughter, now we will give them back, but we are going to subject them to the most cruel punishment and tourture, but I promise we will return them to you.Would you agree to it.Of course resurrection dosent, nullify the sacrifice, it validates itDawn BertotEdited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

That's exactly what I said. I would gladly sacrifice my own flesh and blood every day if I knew I would be resurrected. I'm sure most decent humans would do the same. That's no sacrifice at all. We're not talking about pain. As you said yourself, people endure pain every day. What we're talking about here is dying and rising from the dead. (If anything, the temporary death would be a welcome relief from the pain.) You have the Bible story backwards. The equivalent would be me offering my child to be tortured and killed in return for some service that I would perform. I would perform the service without subjecting my child to pain and death.

Im sure anyone can fathom or imagine what they might do in any given situation. And giving ones life might even be a proposition one would consider. Its not a matter of what you might do or what you think you can do, but what you would actually do.All of the disciples were confident that in that moment they would not recant, but all of them did when real death, painful death was starring them in the face. Im sure I would have folded like a Halmark cardYour wrong, its always a sacrifice, no matter what the other end or outcome will be Of course we are talking about pain,, thats the point. Sure theres always, the higher moral ground, but getting there is ALWAYS the Point, Ringo.I did not say, people live with pain everyday, I said people will do anything to get out of pain, thats the point.Sure if I could be instantly dispatched without even the hint of suffering, then resurrected, that might be a consideration. That is not what's at stakeIf someone told me I needed to suffer unbearably, daily for you, to remain alive, Id say quickly, we had better start looking for other options Yes and I was following your lead as to what you had already commented. Introducing your or my child, gives the Biblical narrative even more valididty. Now I already know Im not going to do for you personally, lets not even, talk about what I would NOT do for you concerning one of my childrenSee how the Biblical narrative starts to take on even more validationAgain, what you may or may not do in your imagination, is presently, Buffalo Chips, its not realityLets use a simple illustration. As men we all have those nutty imaginations, about what we might or might not do in any given situation. We actually carry them out in our mind. A confrontation with another fellow, a road rage, situation, home invasion, etcWe all go through the whole process in our mind, but when the actual situation arises, we very rarely act like Chuck Norris or James Bond. We cease up, lock up, pass out, or something of that sortMany of the early Christians did recant, in the face of very violent and painful death, I have no doubt I would have been amoung that numberIts easy to speak about what you wouuld do from the safety of your comfortable home in front of your computerEdited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

You're still missing the point. If the disciples had known they would be resurrected they would have been less likely to recant. But that isn't true. People will not do "anything" to get out of pain. To use your own example, people will not sacrifice their own children to get out of pain. On the contrary, they will willingly endure pain for their children's sake. And again, they would be willing to endure much more if they were assured that there would be no permanent injury or death. Again, that isn't true. Every day there are soldiers, police officers, firefighters, etc. risking their lives and enduring pain and hardship to help other people. They do it willingly, voluntarily.Yes, they are making a sacrifice. That sacrifice would be less, not more, if every one of them rose from the dead.

Well this is a curiously odd statement, seeing that most of the disciples, were of the Pharisee persuasion, which means that they already believed in an after life and resurrection.Consider Martha's statement to Jesus about Lazurus. "I know Lord he will be raised on the last day".. "Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:"John 11:25No Ringo they recanted for fear of the immediate, clear and present danger, of touture, mutilation and unimaginable pain Of course there is difference as to what you would do for your children and of course there is a difference when you have no choice. The choice is not yoursBut look what happens when you are given a choice.Yours again is an odd statement. There is always permanent pain, injury and death, where there is pain, injury or death, resurrection notwithstanding No one is questioning these groups of peoples contribution, but there is a qualitative difference in knowing absolutely something is about to happen, knowing all the very specfic gruesom details, verses just the the likelihood that things were possibleSitting in a prison cell knowing you are about to torn apart by wild beasts, lit as a torch, disembowled, etc, is much different than, just assuming something may or may not happen, on the beat. Again I dont mean to imply they do not provide a great service, but I am sure if you asked an officer, had he exact foreknowledge of what was going to happen that day, he may alter his plans accordinglySee thats the point, Jesus didnt alter his plans and he didnt tap outI think you are greatly confusing the head knowledge about resurrection, with what actual fear and concerns exist in those situationsResurrection will happen wheather I believe or not. It would be a sacrifce whether there was or was not a reusurrectionThe only factor in those extreme situations, is do I have faith in God, to carry me through that situation.Im sure alot of people (like yourself) would be convinced in thier own minds, long before the actual events, that they would actually be able to die a horrible death, for people they dont even know. Its one thing to talk about it, another to actually follow through with itEdited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

We're not talking about an afterlife; we're talking about a resurrection in this life, like Jesus. There is no indication of that in the story of Jesus' death and resurrection. He had the marks of his injuries but there is no mention of residual pain or dysfunction. Nobody ever has "exact foreknowledge". The police officer, firefighter or soldier knows the probability that they will be injured or killed but they do what they do regardless of the risk. Actually, it's just the opposite. Most people don't know what they can do until the situation arises. Soldiers don't go into battle believing they can endure pain and hardship, yet they do endure pain and hardship for their comrades and for complete strangers too.Jesus' "sacrifice" was far from unique.

If by "sacrifice" you mean crucifixion then folk need to remember that at least two others suffered the same death on the same day in the same city and an unknown number of others likely died similar deaths across the Roman Empire that day.

What a bizzare statement. So resurrection is before or during life, not after life. Any way you cut it its after "life"You seem to be unable to focus on one point. Your contention was that the disciples, had they believed in resurrection, they may not have recanted. Since it is clear they did, this did not make difference for some.Proving my point that unless you are actually in that situation, you dont actually know what you will do. proving my point that your boast, is dung hill paste I was talking about while the process was taking place. There was actual unbearable pain, very real injuryand very real deathYou see youve got it all backwards. Resurrection was not his motivation for the sacrifice, it was surprisingly your and my worthless buts. Jesus had very real head knowledge of the resurrection in the garden, but asked for this cup to pass from him,because he knew what the "cup" involvedSo where is the empty threat or boast by you that you would do this time after time, if it meant, saving peoples livesYou have very real head knowledge NOW, that you could save peoples lives in other countries, without fear of death, why dont you go do this now? Why? simply because you dont want to, correct?You have a certain amount of fear and reservation. Could you imagine what your fear would involve if you were faced with what the early Christians had to endure The earliest Christians did Well I guess we have come full circle in this part of the discussion, because you now seem to be admitting atleast indirectly that your boast was ill concieved and made in hasteThanks for that indirect admission. See you around the boardDawn BertotEdited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

My contention is that few people would take a temporary death as seriously as a permanent one. That also implies that few people take the idea of a woo-woo "afterlife" very seriously. But your point is wrong, as demonstrated. People (soldiers, police officers, firefighters, etc.) do risk their lives - many of them not believing in a woo-woo "afterlife" - for causes which they consider worthwhile. An individual person might not know what he/she "would" do in advance but humans collectively do behave as they do. You're embellishing. Jesus actually died faster than most crucifixion victims. He didn't even have any broken bones. Sez you. The story doesn't say why he wanted to avoid death. He may have been as unsure of the resurrection as anybody else. What makes you think I don't? Read more carefully. I have said throughout that people "would" willingly risk their lives for others, with or without the possibility of resurrection. And I am saying that people "can" do even more than they think they "would" do.The will to try precedes the ability to do but the ability to do surpasses the will.