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Author Topic:   Einstein is rolling over in His Grave, or Cern makes a big mistake
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2159 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 4 of 74 (634578)
09-22-2011 8:48 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Percy
09-22-2011 5:48 PM


quote:
Also, given that Fermilab is scheduled to discontinue operation at the end of this year, they might not have sufficient time to do the necessary setup work to their neutrino facility, and experimenters currently on the schedule through the year's end will fight hard to maintain their place.
Correction: only the Tevatron at Fermilab is scheduled to shut down. The lab plans to continue doing neutrino physics and to pursue new high-energy physics projects on the "intensity frontier" rather than the "energy frontier" (which the US has ceded to CERN).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Percy, posted 09-22-2011 5:48 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2159 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 20 of 74 (635455)
09-29-2011 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by GDR
09-28-2011 8:30 PM


quote:
Is there someone who can explain this in terms that someone who took a 3 month course on Newtonian Physics in High School in 1960 can understand?
The problem comes when one changes reference frames through a Lorentz transformation. In different reference frames, time moves at different rates, and distances are measured differently. This is well-understood and well-verified. (E.g. muons have a 2.2 usec lifetime, but when moving near the speed of light relative to an observer, are measured to have a much longer lifetime.)
But if a particle moves faster than light, it is possible to transform to a reference frame where the particle is destroyed before it is created. An effect will occur before its cause. We would be forced to fundamentally change our understanding of relativity or of causality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by GDR, posted 09-28-2011 8:30 PM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by RAZD, posted 09-29-2011 10:30 AM kbertsche has replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2159 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


(1)
Message 22 of 74 (635460)
09-29-2011 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by RAZD
09-29-2011 10:30 AM


Re: but do you c what I c?
quote:
But if this new experimental result is just a refinement of the actual speed of light what happens?
This would avoid the problems, but it's not possible. The speed of light has been measured to high precision in multiple experiments. It can't be in error by 2 parts in 10^5.

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kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2159 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 37 of 74 (635665)
09-30-2011 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by AZPaul3
09-29-2011 5:18 PM


Re: Let's Speculate
quote:
Nothing in this universe is perfect. The mas (energy) of a proton has been measured at 1.672621777(74)10−27 kg (about .938 GeV). Note the (74) in this measurement. That is the error bar. Some protons may be slightly more massive, some less so, than the mean measurement. The neutrino mass is given as less than 3x10-36 kg (about 2 eV). We cannot yet be certain how much less then 2 eV in mass the various flavors of neutrino are but we can be sure that, as with everything else, it will vary across some (very small) range.
The high energy protons generated by CERN (or anywhere) will be generated over a range of masses. The masses of the resultant pulse of protons will form a bell curve with very narrow arms and a steep high peak at the mean value. Most of the generated protons would have measured mass clustered very close to the mean with a few (100,000s?) of slightly greater and slightly lesser mass within the narrow arms around the mean value.
  —AZPaul3
Correction: we believe that all protons have the same fundamental mass. The bell curve is not due to a spread in mass, but due to uncertainty in our measurement of the mass.
The protons extracted from CERN will have a small spread in energy, determined by the details of the accelerator. But because the beam is highly relativistic and the neutrino production target is very close, this should have essentially no effect on the timing.
quote:
Similarly, the timing of proton generation will vary. So we will have another bell curve where most of the protons in the pulse are generated around a specific mean time with a few (100,000s?) generated ever so slightly earlier and ever so slightly later.
  —AZPaul3
This timing is determined by the extraction pulses. No protons will be extracted until the kicker magnets are fired. But jitter in the timing system would have the same effect as the mechanism that you describe, and this is a plausible issue.
quote:
Now to speculate on the OPERA results. And, yes, admittedly, with the view that Relativity is preserved.
There are three (3) speculations that may be at work here.
1. There may be a correlation between the (slightly) increased mass (energy) of a generated proton and a (slightly) increased mass (energy) of the neutrino generated by that specific proton collision.
  —AZPaul3
We believe that the masses of protons and each flavor of neutrino are fixed fundamental constants. There is certainly a correlation between proton energy and neutrino energy. But how would this make the neutrinos appear to be super-luminal?
quote:
2. There may be a correlation between (slightly) higher proton mass and its (slightly) earlier release from the proton generator.
  —AZPaul3
Assuming that you mean energy instead of mass, it is indeed possible that there is a correlation between proton energy and time along the extraction pulse. But again, how would this make the neutrinos appear to be super-luminal?
quote:
3. There may be a bias in polystyrene scintillators that detect (slightly) higher energy neutrinos only (and very few of those anyway).
  —AZPaul3
Yes, there will be some energy dependence to the neutrino detectors. But again, how would this make the neutrinos appear to be super-luminal?
For what it's worth, I suspect the problem will turn out to be a subtle error in either the timing or the distance:
Timing: Have they mis-measured or mis-calculated a time delay in their electronics chain somewhere? Have they ever calibrated the timing through the entire systems which generates their trigger pulses and their detection pulses? This would be an easy mistake to make.
Distance: They have relied on GPS measurements, which are very precise, and are very accurate for short-range differential measurements. But how accurate is GPS over the distance from Geneva to Gran Sasso? (GPS mapping reduces to a differential short-range measurement, since the map-maker and the user both rely on the same GPS signals.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by AZPaul3, posted 09-29-2011 5:18 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
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kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2159 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 38 of 74 (635666)
09-30-2011 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by GDR
09-30-2011 10:15 AM


Re: End of an Era
quote:
Tevatron atom smasher shuts after more than 25 years
  —GDR
From Fermilab Today, Friday, Sept 30, 2011:
The Tevatron shuts down today, after 28 years of operation.
Fermilab will shut down the Tevatron this afternoon for the last time. A broadcast of the event will begin at 2 p.m. CDT. Fermilab staff and users can watch the broadcast in Ramsey Auditorium. The broadcast will also be available online.
Fermilab Director Pier Oddone will host the broadcast, which will feature the shutdown in the Main Control Room, and the CDF and DZero control rooms.
The event will be streamed online beginning at 1:45 PM CDT.

This message is a reply to:
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kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2159 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 67 of 74 (653642)
02-23-2012 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Wounded King
02-23-2012 5:23 AM


CERN Press Release
CERN Press release, Feb 23, 2012:
The OPERA collaboration has informed its funding agencies and host laboratories that it has identified two possible effects that could have an influence on its neutrino timing measurement. These both require further tests with a short pulsed beam. If confirmed, one would increase the size of the measured effect, the other would diminish it. The first possible effect concerns an oscillator used to provide the time stamps for GPS synchronizations. It could have led to an overestimate of the neutrino's time of flight. The second concerns the optical fibre connector that brings the external GPS signal to the OPERA master clock, which may not have been functioning correctly when the measurements were taken. If this is the case, it could have led to an underestimate of the time of flight of the neutrinos. The potential extent of these two effects is being studied by the OPERA collaboration. New measurements with short pulsed beams are scheduled for May.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Wounded King, posted 02-23-2012 5:23 AM Wounded King has seen this message but not replied

  
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