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Author Topic:   10 Categories of Evidence For ID
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3912 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 31 of 147 (207167)
05-11-2005 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Jerry Don Bauer
05-11-2005 11:47 AM


Intelligent Selection?
What they are doing is choosing to "select" what they want to keep, and reject what they do not. This was also the basis of Dawkin's weasel deally.
Think about it:
Flipping 500 quarters and having them all come up heads is statistically impossible. But if I flip them, then intelligently select to keep all the heads and flip only the tails, it won't be long until I have all heads. Information grows.
This is what the programs are doing and do you know what everyone but Darwinists call this? Intelligent design.
I thought this was very interesting.
What you basically described here is natural selection. You start from a state and modify it randomly (i.e. flipping the coins). You then choose which a subset of the state to fix and modify the non fixed subset randomly. Repeat.
Are you advocating that ID is actually equivalent to Intelligent Selection? If so, how would we distinguish this from Natural Selection where environmental pressures are the factors "deciding" which new random state is fit?

FOX has a pretty good system they have cooked up. 10 mil people watch the show on the network, FOX. Then 5 mil, different people, tune into FOX News to get outraged by it. I just hope that those good, God fearing people at FOX continue to battle those morally bankrupt people at FOX.
-- Lewis Black, The Daily Show

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Jerry Don Bauer, posted 05-11-2005 11:47 AM Jerry Don Bauer has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Jerry Don Bauer, posted 05-11-2005 7:37 PM Jazzns has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3912 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 50 of 147 (207370)
05-12-2005 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Jerry Don Bauer
05-11-2005 7:37 PM


Re: Intelligent Selection?
Interesting response. Thank you. I have a few more questions.
1. How do you tell the difference between intelligent selection and natural selection?
2. How do you eliminate the possibility that a very strict environment might cause a type of natural selection that looks like intelligent selection? (i.e. an environment that only and always allows the heads side of the coin to be fixed)
3. If we somehow show intelligence, how does this refute common ancestry? Changing how things are selected does not change the paradigm that much. If you somehow show all of this is true all that means is that a different selection force is what caused evolution. I don't see how your position is in conflict with the modern theory of evolution yet you keep saying that things like the evolution of the mammalian inner ear are impossible. This seems to be a contradiction in position. Please clarify.
Thanks!

FOX has a pretty good system they have cooked up. 10 mil people watch the show on the network, FOX. Then 5 mil, different people, tune into FOX News to get outraged by it. I just hope that those good, God fearing people at FOX continue to battle those morally bankrupt people at FOX.
-- Lewis Black, The Daily Show

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Jerry Don Bauer, posted 05-11-2005 7:37 PM Jerry Don Bauer has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by mick, posted 05-12-2005 1:51 PM Jazzns has not replied
 Message 65 by Jerry Don Bauer, posted 05-12-2005 6:49 PM Jazzns has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3912 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 58 of 147 (207496)
05-12-2005 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Jerry Don Bauer
05-12-2005 4:41 PM


I != MC^2
How far off would I be Percy, to extrapolate Einstein's formula into I = MC^2??
I would say extremely far of by almost anyone's definition of information.
Take the two strings:
"aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa"
and
"#!/usr/bin/perl
print 'Hello World';"
Both occupy the exact same amount of space in the universe but the second most certainly contains more information than the first.

FOX has a pretty good system they have cooked up. 10 mil people watch the show on the network, FOX. Then 5 mil, different people, tune into FOX News to get outraged by it. I just hope that those good, God fearing people at FOX continue to battle those morally bankrupt people at FOX.
-- Lewis Black, The Daily Show

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Jerry Don Bauer, posted 05-12-2005 4:41 PM Jerry Don Bauer has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by RAZD, posted 05-12-2005 5:42 PM Jazzns has replied
 Message 95 by Percy, posted 05-13-2005 12:54 PM Jazzns has not replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3912 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 62 of 147 (207504)
05-12-2005 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by RAZD
05-12-2005 5:42 PM


Re: I != MC^2
I did say almost anyone's definition of information didn't I?
This message has been edited by Jazzns, 05-12-2005 04:09 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by RAZD, posted 05-12-2005 5:42 PM RAZD has not replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3912 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 98 of 147 (208133)
05-14-2005 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Jerry Don Bauer
05-12-2005 6:49 PM


Re: Intelligent Selection?
In what case? Where there is no intelligence, I would think if selection occurs we might rule out intelligence. But I don't know that there's a universal rule. Are you suggesting that natural selection was also intelligent selection? If you are a theistic evolutionist, I have no problem with this, but other than this, I would have to ask you where the intelligence came from.
I am not making any claim. All I am asking is how would one tell the difference? You came to the conclusion that the coin example was a case of intelligent selection. What objective test did you do in order to reach that conclusion that would apply to any instance of selection?
I don't know that it does. Shouldn't we be trying to confirm or falsify common ancestry?
I was under the impression that you considered this ridiculous when you said in Message 153:
Darwinian magic: Elephants magically 'poof' out of amoebas; ape-like critters start giving birth to men in violation of the species definitions in science
Which first off is not what modern science considers common decent or the definition of species to be. If any was really advocating a literal adherance to the parody you described in that post then I agree that this would not be science. There are many definitions of species some of which cover not extant species so there is no violation of any definitions.
Species - Wikipedia
See in particular the definition of morphological species. Certainly where it is possible the stronger definition of biological species can be used but by no means is it an exhaustive definition or the only one used in science.
First, please clarify yourself and come to use these terms more precisely. When you speak of evolution of the inner ear, this just means a change over time in the inner ear not how it originated. Second, I don't even recall discussing the inner ear. Can you link me back??
Also you wrote in Message 153:
reptiloid therapsids supernaturally shove their jaw-bones up into their ears and shoot etherally into mammals.
We have fossils of creatures who's jawbone has a function as a jaw bone and a sound wave receptor. Before them we have similar looking creatures with just a jaw bone. After them we have similar looking creatures that have the same jaw bone primarily as a sound receptor. Last we have similar looking creatures that have the same bone exclusivly as a sound receptor.
How is this not scientific to tentativily conclude that this is a transitional sequence as a result of decent with modification?
How would the mechanism for this sequence change its meaning if it was performed by Intelligent vs Natural Selection?
What test could I do to tell if this sequence of evolution was intelligently prescribed or a "devolution" as you would call it?

FOX has a pretty good system they have cooked up. 10 mil people watch the show on the network, FOX. Then 5 mil, different people, tune into FOX News to get outraged by it. I just hope that those good, God fearing people at FOX continue to battle those morally bankrupt people at FOX.
-- Lewis Black, The Daily Show

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Jerry Don Bauer, posted 05-12-2005 6:49 PM Jerry Don Bauer has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by Jerry Don Bauer, posted 05-14-2005 8:27 PM Jazzns has not replied

  
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