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Author Topic:   The Evolution Of Sleep
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 19 of 72 (636743)
10-10-2011 1:54 PM


It seems to me that if we think of the body as just a biological machine then all it would require is more fuel to keep going. Isn't it likely that it's our consciousness that needs the rest? If that is the case then I have to wonder what it is about our consciousness that needs recharging and just how does that happen.
Then I would wonder what part dreams play in all of this. I would think that dreams would be a drain on consciousness but that doesn't appear to be the case.
Sadly, I only have questions and no answers.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Larni, posted 10-10-2011 3:54 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 21 of 72 (636753)
10-10-2011 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Larni
10-10-2011 3:54 PM


Larni writes:
But our consciousness resides in the biological substrate of our brain, which appears to need a refractory period to keep it going. This means that it the biology that needs to have a break.
Our consciousness is bound within our biology.
I wonder. I have to admit that I’m of the school of thought that thinks our consciousness is responsible for our biology. I see the brain has having evolved but consciousness existing somehow apart. However even if that is correct, what you said about the brain needing a refractory period makes more sense than what I suggested in my previous post.
Larni writes:
Our brain is just as active when we sleep but it does a different kind of activity. The wave lengths of our brain waves change but it's still very active.
Adenosine builds up in the body when we are awake and lowers when we sleep. From this we could conclude that this build up acts to signal sleep and that this evolved because sleep is very beneficial to the organism fitness.
I have a hunch you know a great deal more about this than I do and a quick look at wiki confirmed this. As I’ve said before, this is a great place to learn.
Thanks

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Larni, posted 10-10-2011 3:54 PM Larni has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 24 of 72 (636774)
10-10-2011 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Larni
10-10-2011 6:37 PM


I'll just add one thing that has always puzzled me. I can look directly at the face of someone I know well, close my eyes and try and picture that face. There is only a kind of vague recollection but no image.
However, when I dream I'm in some kind of semi-consciousness state with my eyes closed, yet, I still perceive recognizable faces. There is no external stimuli and yet I see things clearly in my mind in a way that I can't when I'm awake with my eyes closed. Where does that mental picture come from?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Larni, posted 10-10-2011 6:37 PM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Larni, posted 10-10-2011 7:21 PM GDR has replied
 Message 27 by Robert Byers, posted 10-11-2011 2:18 AM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 26 of 72 (636777)
10-10-2011 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Larni
10-10-2011 7:21 PM


Larni writes:
I don't know what to say about your visualising someone from memory: my images are pretty clear (even though I have a terrible memory for faces).
I agree that we can form a mental picture of sorts but it is a vague idea of what something looks like, although I agree that painters can draw from memory. The images that we have when we dream are much more clearly defined and more like what we visualize when we are awake with our eyes open.
I have no idea what to make of it but I suspect that there is more significance in it than what we might think.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Larni, posted 10-10-2011 7:21 PM Larni has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Straggler, posted 10-11-2011 6:44 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 41 of 72 (636824)
10-11-2011 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Straggler
10-11-2011 6:44 AM


Straggler writes:
So I don't think such clarity is necessarily a feature of dreams specifically.
I don't actually have a point in all of this except that I find it strange. I can look at a face, close my eyes and create a mental picture. The mental picture I get is a memory of what I was just looking at.
In my dreams however, it is much more like what I experience when I'm awake with my eyes open and in some cases I dream of things and people of which I have no memory.
With a bit of circular reasoning I think that it has something to do with the consciousness or mind being a reality that isn't a physical reality. That however is JMHO.
I think dreams have a lot to do with needing sleep and so I think that discussing dreams is consistent with the theme of this thread. I thought I’d add that before some sharp eyed admin tells me I’m off topic.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Straggler, posted 10-11-2011 6:44 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Straggler, posted 10-11-2011 1:33 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 47 of 72 (636858)
10-11-2011 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Straggler
10-11-2011 1:33 PM


Straggler writes:
Whilst the mind body problem is a fascinating topic in itself (maybe I'll start a thread at some point) but let's not explicitly go there here. But on that note....You must admit that physical things (e.g. drugs) can induce dream like states, hallucinations and all of the other things that you seem to consider non-physical. Isn't sleep (and dreaming) just bio-chemistry at the end of the day?
Well. you may be right but isn't an hallucination a form of dream. In both cases you are observing something isn't a result of our eyesight. What is it that forms that image? It seems to me to be something more than memory partly because it is a different kind of image and partly because it is often something we have never before experienced.
I spent a lot of time in Hong Kong. A lot of my dreams seem to take place there. However when the dream causes me wake up I realize that the Hong Kong in my dreams was nothing like the Hong Kong that I spent time in.
It just seems to me that our consciousness or mind is not just a part of our brain. It is almost as if our brain is the conduit between our physical reality and our mind.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Straggler, posted 10-11-2011 1:33 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Straggler, posted 10-11-2011 3:23 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 52 by Larni, posted 10-11-2011 5:06 PM GDR has not replied

  
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