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Author Topic:   Evidence for a recent flood
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 220 of 404 (642105)
11-25-2011 8:00 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by IamJoseph
11-25-2011 7:39 PM


Re: Lets take the initiative
Does everyone understand that we have no history per se before such writings and its given datings of human history? Does a Proffessor know of a NAME older than that of Adam?
Yeah. Sumerian cuneiform predates the books of Moses. Secondly, if I write a novel and claim the characters lived 10,000 years ago, does that necessarily indicate its accuracy?
If not, then you point is moot.
Genesis says the earth is billions of years old, but that human speech is 6000 years.
It says nothing of the sort. Please substantiate your assertion if you feel otherwise.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by IamJoseph, posted 11-25-2011 7:39 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by IamJoseph, posted 11-25-2011 8:19 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 228 of 404 (642116)
11-25-2011 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by IamJoseph
11-25-2011 8:19 PM


Re: Lets take the initiative
If you alsolist factors which are historically accurate to the period, and not seen previously [as with Mount Ararat and the listing of numerous nations] yes it means it is accurate. Yes there were older writings - but none which is older than 6000; and alphabetical books older than the Hebrew.
Neolithic writing was found on tortoise shells in China dating back to 8,600 years, which is almost 1,500 years before what you believe is the earliest known writing.
But even if writing dated back only 6,000 years ago, what exactly is the significance in that?
That Adam is the oldest speech endowened human/life form: The Hebrew calendar, 5772 years, the oldest active one we have.
That's not true at all. In the Enuma Elish, the king's list go 20,000 years before the name of Adam. The implication of that is not only were those names listed long before Adam's name was, but it claims to be far older than Adam. Now, just because the claim says it goes back that far doesn't make it so... but the same goes for Adam.
That the universe and the earth are billions of years old, and the first such claim made: the seperation actions listed in Genesis, prior to the advent of life forms. Namely, the seperation of light from darkness; day from night; water from land. These account for billions and millions of years.
Over and over again in the opening sequence of the Genesis account, the author goes out of his way to spell out lunar days, i.e. "it was day, it was night... the first day... the second day... the third day... etc.
This is merely your own invention based on scientific data after the fact. Nowhere in Genesis does it give a timeline for the universe or the earth. That's pure conjecture on your part.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by IamJoseph, posted 11-25-2011 8:19 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by IamJoseph, posted 11-25-2011 9:30 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 231 of 404 (642119)
11-25-2011 8:45 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by IamJoseph
11-25-2011 8:34 PM


Mt. Ararat
What is known today as Mt. Ararat might be named after the mountainous region in Turkey and surrounding countries, not necessarily a specific mountain. For instance, "The Rockies" is the name of a cluster of mountains, not the name of any single mountain.
But honestly, what's your point?

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by IamJoseph, posted 11-25-2011 8:34 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by IamJoseph, posted 11-25-2011 9:35 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 243 of 404 (642137)
11-25-2011 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 233 by IamJoseph
11-25-2011 9:30 PM


Re: Lets take the initiative
Every one of such claims have been found as bogus.
So debunk it.
Did you not wonder why no transit imprints between 8600 and 6000 are seen? If what you say is true, why do we not have alphabetical Chinese books listing 1000's of years of ancient history?
I didn't say it was written in modern Chinese (lots of dialects, btw) I said it was found in China. Whatever the case, it completely debunks your claim. Either illustrate why it's false or concede.
You bring up a one only 'CONJURED" myth, yet dispute tangible evidenced writings with factually evidenced historical landmarks!?
Factually evidenced historical landmarks mean what exactly? How is that relevant to the point where indisputable evidence exists of documents with names that predate Adam?
Correction. Genesis does not list any 'first' day: it says DAY ONE [for the first], then goes on to say SECOND, THIRD, day, etc. This is astutely correct: a first means first of previous and other days!
Wow, semantics much?!?! My translation says first, second, third, etc, not that it matters. You said that Genesis indicates that the universe is millions of years old. I disputed that using the very source you claim corroborates your assertion. Explain why Moses' language explicitly denotes literal days and not long epochs of time if what you say is true.
The listing of the actions mentioned before life emerged do account for billions of years; it cannot be after the fact because the premise of billions was as yet not in the human vocab or mindset; this is in fact the first alluding to such a time scale of a finite universe's age, well before the term science was coined.
It alludes to nothing of the such. It flat out gives literal days. You are making the assumption based on what you have luxury of knowing -- that the universe is in fact billions of years old. But the bible is at odds with that fact.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by IamJoseph, posted 11-25-2011 9:30 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by IamJoseph, posted 11-25-2011 10:30 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 250 by IamJoseph, posted 11-25-2011 10:36 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 252 by ICANT, posted 11-25-2011 11:27 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 244 of 404 (642138)
11-25-2011 10:09 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by IamJoseph
11-25-2011 9:35 PM


Re: Mt. Ararat
The point is Mount Ararat shows the general vicinity of the flood - backed by listing of other nations and regions of its surrounds; it cannot be retrospective if it is the first such listing of that mount.
But who cares? Why does it matter? If the Enuma Elish talks about Ur and Babylon (places known to exist) does that mean it's version of the Flood story is therefore necessarily accurate because of it?
No, it doesn't. So please explain to me again the relevance, cuz I'm not seeing it.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by IamJoseph, posted 11-25-2011 9:35 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by IamJoseph, posted 11-25-2011 10:20 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 245 of 404 (642140)
11-25-2011 10:13 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by IamJoseph
11-25-2011 9:39 PM


Does everyone agree, at the very least, the Noah story stands up to historical scrutiny based on a regional flood?
No, absolutely not. It's a fact that a big flood occured in that region, sure. That doesn't mean, however, there was a guy named Noah who built a wooden aircraft carrier full of every known species of animal on the planet, nor does it mean that only 7 people survived and then re-populated the earth.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by IamJoseph, posted 11-25-2011 9:39 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by IamJoseph, posted 11-25-2011 10:22 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 267 of 404 (642181)
11-26-2011 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 246 by IamJoseph
11-25-2011 10:20 PM


Re: Mt. Ararat
If a report includes many factual stats it does not mean it is true of being contemporary; it can still be retrospective reporting. But if those stats are mentioned for the first time - the situation alters dramatically.
What factual stats?

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by IamJoseph, posted 11-25-2011 10:20 PM IamJoseph has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 268 of 404 (642182)
11-26-2011 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 247 by IamJoseph
11-25-2011 10:22 PM


What makes it a fact? Who says Noah's household [domestic animals] and a person by the name Noah, makes it non-factual?
What makes the flood a fact is empirical evidence. As for Noah, that's 4,000 year old hearsay from a single source. You might as well believe in Tiamat because it's found in the Enuma Elish by your rationale.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by IamJoseph, posted 11-25-2011 10:22 PM IamJoseph has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 270 of 404 (642187)
11-26-2011 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by IamJoseph
11-25-2011 10:30 PM


Re: Lets take the initiative
We have no older names than Adam
Nonsense, and I've proven otherwise. The Enuma Elish predates ANY book of the bible, and it lists names (pronouns) that exceed the time given to Adam. That completely shatters your myth about Adam being the first name ever listed in writing.
factual landmarks affirm historical credibility; your chinese writings does not show the same.
It doesn't need landmarks to prove that it's:
1. Writing
2. Oldest known writing
Your litmus test is completely and irrevocably skewed.
Do you understand that first is not one, but many others preceding it? Analogy: is the sprinter who comes first the first or one of many sprinters? Genesis is astutely correct - and its no typo! Of note, Genesis goes on to correctly state the following days as SECOND; THIRD; etc. Why so?
I'm sorry, but this is a ridiculous and irrelevant point you're making. I shouldn't even entertain it, but for your edification I will proceed.
You do understand that this was translated in to English, which doesn't change the fact that they were speaking about the first day. Whether you say Day 1 or the first day, IN ENGLISH, does NOT change the context whatsoever.
Secondly, the point you seem to be dodging is that Moses goes out of his way to explain a 24-hour day for the creation narrative. If these Days were representative of long epochs, why did he go out of his way to detail a calendar day? He uses the terms "night" and "day." Why, if what you allege is true?

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by IamJoseph, posted 11-25-2011 10:30 PM IamJoseph has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 271 of 404 (642188)
11-26-2011 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by ICANT
11-25-2011 11:27 PM


Re: Lets take the initiative
Had the author intended for the Ordinal number to be used (first) he would have used the Hebrew word which means first.
In English, does saying Day 1 and the first day change the context whatsoever? No, it doesn't. Therefore the point he is making is entirely moot and semantical. It's immaterial.
Now as to the definition of day which you question.
God gives the definition of a day in Genesis 1:5.
God called the light period day and He called the darkness night. He then combined the light period that had ended with the eveining in Genesis 1:2 and the dark period that ended with the light period of the morning as day one.
He then declared the end of each light period with evening and the end of the dark period at morning as the second day, the third day, the fourth day, the fifth day, the sixth day and the seventh day.
Day 2-7 ended with an evening the close of a light period and a morning the close of a dark period.
Since that takes place with every rotation of the Earth it makes those days a 24 hour day or thereabouts.
Precisely my point. He's describing literal days.
That first light period is something else though there is no limit to how long it lasted.
Therefore the Earth is just as old as it is as it was created in the beginning.
Even if one were to grant that the first day described in Genesis was a slight modification, nowehere in there does it describe the earth to millions or billions of years old. That's the contention. He was saying that Genesis describes the earth as being billions of years old. No such description exists anywhere in the bible. That's conjecture based on what we know NOW of the universe.
In essence, it's a fabrication of his.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by ICANT, posted 11-25-2011 11:27 PM ICANT has not replied

  
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