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Author Topic:   What the KJV Bible says about the Noah Flood
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3756 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 256 of 306 (640605)
11-10-2011 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by ICANT
11-10-2011 8:53 PM


Re: look at what the God characters say
quote:
I believe Moses wrote the book that was divided into the first 5 books of the Bible.
He had nothing to do with the chapters, verses, or book division.
No contest. It means each generation can read as they percieve in their generation, while also adhering to one of the commands, NOT TO ADD OR SUBTRACT ANYTHING FROM THESE LAWS. This command appears to have been honored, as we see in a host of existential wars with differing nations who disagreed with it. While Christianity and Islam, for example, also uphold their scriptures as sacred, they do not have such a command as in the Hebrew, thus we see great differences in any changes offered by those religions.
IOW, if there were any changes to be made, even to save many lives, it should have been seen in Rome's heresy decree of worshipping a divine king, which the Jews rejected, and which culminated in one of history's greatest destructions - and the safe guarding of monotheism as preserved slely by those Jews 2000 years ago. Had the jews of Judea seccumbed to Rome, Europe would have been worshipping Jupiter today! This should be seen as proof any changes from the writings is not plausible, and the reason we have no such proof of it. The other factor is that the Hebrew letters also acted as numerals, whereby the entire letters are accountable, and any numerical variance would pop up as an error.
quote:
There is not a single tablet available that Moses wrote in any museum as of this date.
He would have wrote on clay tablets which were made in the wilderness. The materials might not have been perfect and that is the reason none of them have been found.
Not many similar period relics are available in museums, save for stone etched slabs. The original five books are said to be contained in an arc of the covenant [a box] and this was hidden away by K. Solomon. Its discovery will be one of the greatest finds. This box is layered with fine gold, which means it will never rust or corrupt.
quote:
But we do have what has been copied over years.
The dead sea scrolls and the copies of the Septuagint [300 BCE], both predating Christianity and Islam, both being stemmed from different source points - are substantially the same. Both contain the Noah story; nothing is missing or added. Your inference of 'copying' has no basis.
quote:
The Hebrew I use and we have in the Torah is not what Moses writings looked like. Moses would have written in Paleo-Hebrew which is what was used prior to 585 BC. I think I have an avatar with Paleo on it. I will change it to that one. I would love to use it but I can't find html codes for it.
How many times do you think the text was copied from Moses time until today?
The Hebrew is the most authentic writings and language possessed by humanity. Consider that it was resurrected after 2000 years and still retains the ancient gutheral sounds how people spoke in ancient times, acting as a time machine. We do not have similar proof from other ancient languages. The Hebrew also contains the first transliterated ancient Egyptian language, namely the opening verse in the 10 commandmands is not in Hebrew but ancient Egyptian, namely, 'I AM' ['ANO CHI']; this is directed at the Pharoah who deemed himself divine, but did not speak Hebrew. It is an evidence of arguable quantity, that the writings is contemporary of its said period.
quote:
If you were one of those copyist there would be no question about the text supporting a local flood. Do you think there was not others who had some wild ideas and copyed to suit their biases.
This is your own personal conjecture and it is bereft of any evidences. All the evidences at hand contradict it.
quote:
If you want to refute the texts you say I am quote mining please present the texts you believe does so. It is not my job to refute myself.
As examples: You have not inserted the verse relating to Noah's household as applicable, then you either deny it or distort it; nor that the arc dimensions only support a local flood and Noah's possessions. Nor did you factor in that no wild animals are mentioned, or that when the arc ceased floating it could not have released all the earth's life forms, or that avine plant would suffice for all such animals. Nor could the arc have landed nearby from where it started. You, like many others, decided this writings is unspecific, fable, uninteligent and capable of incoherence and blatantly implausible descriptions. I say:
Please show us a similar period writings which describes Mount Ararat for the first time and in its correct geographical location? Please explain why the measurements of the arc are given and it only supports Noah's domestic live stock and family - yet that it can still apply to all the earth's life forms? Please show us another writings which lists names and dobs of an entire genealogy as seen in Genesis and deemed as authentic by scholars and archeologists? Therein is the rub! Therein is the runaway avoidance!
quote:
The great, older, more advanced nations did NOT create such books - how come?
But they did create such books. They just poluted the stories that had been handed down to them from their ancestors who was divided into the land after the tower of Babel. And was then divided into the different continents after the flood in Peleg's day.
Moses probably even had the privilege of reading some of them in Pharaohs house. Remember he lived in Pharaohs house for the first 40 years of his life and was educated in the best knowledge in Egypt as he was Pharaohs daughters son by adoption.
So show us the books - even the distorted versions - which museum?! In fact, we have no such books for more than 800 years thereafter! All we have are stone etched pieces of poems, epitaphs and trade reciepts, and none in the alphabetical mode. This is seen even of nations older, mightier and which have never been subjected to exiles as with the Hebrews.Anomaly, no?
quote:
BTW there are some of those tablets available in museums today.
We have no advanced, alphabetical books. A book being a multi-page continuing narrative.
quote:
Where do you think the stories that is constantly trotted out here and claimed to be older stories which the Torah came from?
Tye Hebrew was a late comer in the ancient world. This makes it more enigmatic how it has no equivalence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by ICANT, posted 11-10-2011 8:53 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by ICANT, posted 11-12-2011 11:41 AM IamJoseph has replied
 Message 258 by Butterflytyrant, posted 11-12-2011 1:34 PM IamJoseph has not replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 115 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 257 of 306 (640737)
11-12-2011 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 256 by IamJoseph
11-10-2011 10:17 PM


Re: look at what the God characters say
Hi Joseph,
IamJoseph writes:
No contest. It means each generation can read as they percieve in their generation, while also adhering to one of the commands NOT TO ADD OR SUBTRACT ANYTHING FROM THESE LAWS.
Where can I find that command recorded in the Bible?
IamJoseph writes:
As examples: You have not inserted the verse relating to Noah's household as applicable, then you either deny it or distort it;
I do not add to it as you do I accept it as written.
IamJoseph writes:
nor that the arc dimensions only support a local flood and Noah's possessions.
How do you know how big the ark was or how much it could hold? You don't even have the faintest idea what a cubit is in length.
You say a cubit is a foot.
When in fact the smallest cubit is 17.5 inches, but the Holy Cubit is 25.3 inches.
I have asked you several times for the volume required to put 2 of every critter alive today in and you have not attempted to answer.
You give me the volume required and I will tell you whether it will fit on the ark. I have drawn and built buildings so tell me the cubic feet needed and I will draw it and tell you if they will fit.
The humans could survive in less than 10,000 cubit feet. In fact I know of 12 adults surviving in less than 2,000 cubic feet.
So give me the kinds and number of animals you believe was on the ark and I will see what size ark was need to keep them safe.
IamJoseph writes:
Nor did you factor in that no wild animals are mentioned,
The only wild animal or beast mentioned in Genesis is a wild man.
quote:
Genesis 16:12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.
So why are you on about wild animals?
There was two kinds of animals mentioned. Clean and unclean.
Any other division comes from your imagination.
IamJoseph writes:
or that when the arc ceased floating it could not have released all the earth's life forms,
Why couldn't all the life forms on Earth be released from the ark?
IamJoseph writes:
or that avine plant would suffice for all such animals.
Could you explain what kind of a plant you are talking about and where I can find it in the Bible?
IamJoseph writes:
Nor could the arc have landed nearby from where it started.
Why couldn't the ark have landed anywhere God wanted it to land?
IamJoseph writes:
You, like many others, decided this writings is unspecific, fable, uninteligent and capable of incoherence and blatantly implausible descriptions. I say:
I do not believe the flood story is a fable.
I believe it is a fact and took place as recorded in the text.
I even believe that Noah and his family was to be on the ark as stated in Genesis 7:1.
You are the one adding to the text to make it fit your worldview.
You want to argue what the text says?
If so lets get it on.
quote:
Genesis 1:10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
Genesis 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Genesis 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
Genesis 6:17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.
Genesis 7:4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.
Genesis 7:12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.
Genesis 7:19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
Genesis 7:21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
Genesis 7:22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
Genesis 7:23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.
The Hebrew word ארץ is the same word translated Earth in all the above texts.
ארץ does not mean one thing in 1:10 and another thing in any of the other verses.
It means the same thing in all verses.
Dry land. Which became wet land in 7:19, and uninhabited wet land in 7:23.
According to the text there was no dry land when the water was on the face of the Earth.
Present your refutation of these verses and conclusion and only then will we move on to other verses.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by IamJoseph, posted 11-10-2011 10:17 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by IamJoseph, posted 11-12-2011 6:57 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 260 by IamJoseph, posted 11-12-2011 7:24 PM ICANT has replied

  
Butterflytyrant
Member (Idle past 4509 days)
Posts: 415
From: Australia
Joined: 06-28-2011


Message 258 of 306 (640751)
11-12-2011 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 256 by IamJoseph
11-10-2011 10:17 PM


Re: look at what the God characters say
IamJoseph,
Not many similar period relics are available in museums, save for stone etched slabs.
That is not true.
The dead sea scrolls and the copies of the Septuagint [300 BCE], both predating Christianity and Islam, both being stemmed from different source points - are substantially the same.
That is not true. The Masoretic text has many more similarities than the Septuagint.
Both contain the Noah story; nothing is missing or added. Your inference of 'copying' has no basis.
That is not true.
The Hebrew is the most authentic writings and language possessed by humanity.
That does not make sense. But if it means what I think you ar suggesting, it is not true.
It is an evidence of arguable quantity, that the writings is contemporary of its said period.
That is not true.
All the evidences at hand contradict it.
That is not true.
Please show us another writings which lists names
There are many of these.
as seen in Genesis and deemed as authentic by scholars and archeologists?
That is not true. There is no scholarly or archeological support for any of the early geneologies.
In fact, we have no such books for more than 800 years thereafter!
That is not true.
All we have are stone etched pieces of poems, epitaphs and trade reciepts
That is not true.
and none in the alphabetical mode.
That is not true.
We have no advanced, alphabetical books.
That is not true.
A book being a multi-page continuing narrative.
Do you consider a scroll as "multi page" or one long single page? Are stone or clay tablets pages? What about metal pages? Leather pages? Are you going to say that the only thing you consider to be alphabetical texts are the texts in the Dead Sea Scrolls and the only thing you consider to be pages to be made from are substances that the Dead Sea Scrolls were made from?
This makes it more enigmatic how it has no equivalence.
That is not true.
Thats not bad. Only 14 incorrect and totally unverifiable statements in that post.
At least it is a slight break from you adding words to the Old Testament to try to suit your needs. And twisitng interpretations until they are totally unrecognisable from the Old Testament text you are referring to.
That is getting pretty boring to read.
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

I could agree with you, but then we would both be wrong
Butterfly, AKA, mallethead - Dawn Bertot
"Superstitions and nonsense from the past should not prevent us from making progress. If we hold ourselves back, we admit that our fears are more powerful than our abilities." Hunters of Dune Herbert & Anderson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by IamJoseph, posted 11-10-2011 10:17 PM IamJoseph has not replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3756 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 259 of 306 (640764)
11-12-2011 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by ICANT
11-12-2011 11:41 AM


Re: look at what the God characters say
quote:
No contest. It means each generation can read as they percieve in their generation, while also adhering to one of the commands NOT TO ADD OR SUBTRACT ANYTHING FROM THESE LAWS.
Where can I find that command recorded in the Bible?
One of the most known laws, and what seperated Christianity from its mother religion, and rendered the Jews the most hated throughout history:
quote:
Not to add to the commandments of the Torah, whether in the Written Law or in its interpretation received by tradition (Deut. 13:1)
Mysteriously, none were able to add anything: the world still turns by the Hebrew laws exclusively, to the extent any country or institution which does not follow these laws are seen as outside the law [lawless]. Not a single law was accepted by humanity's institutions from the Gospels or Quran!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by ICANT, posted 11-12-2011 11:41 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by ICANT, posted 11-13-2011 2:14 AM IamJoseph has replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3756 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 260 of 306 (640766)
11-12-2011 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by ICANT
11-12-2011 11:41 AM


Re: look at what the God characters say
quote:
You don't even have the faintest idea what a cubit is in length.
These measurements are not subject to confusion, as you have done in a number of posts thus far. The measurements of the house which contained the Arc, for example, are verifiable in the historical, specifc writings of Josephus and the temple scroll found in the dead sea scroll package. Example measurements of walls, pillars and porches of the Jerusalem temple given in cubits [roughly a foot; elbow to fingers]:
quote:
1Kings 7/2. For he built the house of the forest of Lebanon: the length thereof was a hundred cubits, and the breadth thereof fifty cubits, and the height thereof thirty cubits, upon four rows of cedar pillars, with cedar beams upon the pillars. 6 And he made the porch of pillars: the length thereof was fifty cubits, and the breadth thereof thirty cubits; and a porch before them; and pillars and thick beams before them.
quote:
The humans could survive in less than 10,000 cubit feet. In fact I know of 12 adults surviving in less than 2,000 cubic feet.
And all the life forms of the earth as well, right!? No, the whole of humans could not fit in that space and such a view is quite bizarre. Even a can of sardines does not allow such a view.
quote:
So give me the kinds and number of animals you believe was on the ark and I will see what size ark was need to keep them safe.
This is already given, which you keep denying in every post. This is the count of humans who entered the arc, in accordance to the advocation given to Noah:
quote:
1 And the LORD said unto Noah: 'Come thou and all thy house into the ark. 7 And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.
quote:
Why couldn't all the life forms on Earth be released from the ark?
You tell us!? I gave you an account of those that went in.
quote:
Nor could the arc have landed nearby from where it started.
Why couldn't the ark have landed anywhere God wanted it to land?
That does not make sense. You are refuting given reasoning and statements with a generic premise of what God can do. How about God does not change his mind?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by ICANT, posted 11-12-2011 11:41 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by ICANT, posted 11-13-2011 1:51 AM IamJoseph has not replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 115 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 261 of 306 (640774)
11-13-2011 1:51 AM
Reply to: Message 260 by IamJoseph
11-12-2011 7:24 PM


Re: look at what the God characters say
Hi Joseph,
IamJoseph writes:
These measurements are not subject to confusion, as you have done in a number of posts thus far. The measurements of the house which contained the Arc, for example, are verifiable in the historical, specifc writings of Josephus and the temple scroll found in the dead sea scroll package. Example measurements of walls, pillars and porches of the Jerusalem temple given in cubits [roughly a foot; elbow to fingers]:
I am only 5' 8" tall and from my elbow to the tip of my fingers is a lot further than a foot
Where do you get the statement "roughly a foot"?
Where in Josephus does it state a cubit is roughly a foot?
Where does it state in the Dead Sea Scrolls a cubit is roughly a foot?
IamJoseph writes:
You tell us!? I gave you an account of those that went in.
No you told me his domestic animals.
You did not tell me what animals and how many of each.
He could have had a 1,000 head of cattle and 3,000 head of sheep.
If they were a part of his household they would have all had to be on the ark or either some of his household was not on the ark.
Give me a list of animals and how many of each you believe was on the ark and I will tell you how big the ark had to be.
IamJoseph writes:
quote:
The humans could survive in less than 10,000 cubit feet. In fact I know of 12 adults surviving in less than 2,000 cubic feet.
And all the life forms of the earth as well, right!? No, the whole of humans could not fit in that space and such a view is quite bizarre. Even a can of sardines does not allow such a view.
No there was only two of every unclean critters on the ark supplied by God.
There was also two of every clean critter on the ark supplied by God.
There was also 7 of each clean animal supplied by Noah.
But there was not 2,000 cubic feet or 10,000 cubic feet in the ark. There was over 4 million cubic feet in the ark.
Enough space to have 30 acres of storage space when divided up into rooms.
IamJoseph writes:
quote:
This statement was made by IamJoseph writes:
Nor could the arc have landed nearby from where it started.
Why couldn't the ark have landed anywhere God wanted it to land?
That does not make sense. You are refuting given reasoning and statements with a generic premise of what God can do. How about God does not change his mind?
I corrected the quote you atributed to me above.
You said the ark could not have landed nearby to where it started. You gave no reason or argumentation to support such an assertion.
I simply ask you why not and gave you an argument that God could have caused it to land anywhere He so desired.
No God does not change His mind. If you want to argue that point start a thread for that argumentation.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by IamJoseph, posted 11-12-2011 7:24 PM IamJoseph has not replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 115 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 262 of 306 (640775)
11-13-2011 2:14 AM
Reply to: Message 259 by IamJoseph
11-12-2011 6:57 PM


Re: look at what the God characters say
Hi Joseph,
IamJoseph writes:
quote:
Not to add to the commandments of the Torah, whether in the Written Law or in its interpretation received by tradition (Deut. 13:1)
I have no idea what you are quoting.
quote:
Deut. 13:1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
13:2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
13:3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
That is the entire sentence and it says nothing about adding to or taking away from the law.
The only place I know of a scripture that comes close in in:
quote:
Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
This has nothing to do with the Torah. In fact it only has to do with the book of Revelation.
Now you keep telling me that the copyist could not add to or take away from the text concerning the flood or anything else in the Torah.
Yet you change the size of the ark making it half the size it was and you leave a lot of critters off the ark.
You also state that all the dry earth was not covered with water when the text declares that all the high hills under the whole heavens was covered with water.
You state only domestic animals of Noah's household was on the ark, when the text declares 2 of all flesh that had the breath of life went into the ark to Noah.
So don't tell me no body can add to the text or take any thing away from the text because you sure can.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by IamJoseph, posted 11-12-2011 6:57 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by IamJoseph, posted 11-13-2011 5:51 AM ICANT has replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3756 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 263 of 306 (640783)
11-13-2011 5:51 AM
Reply to: Message 262 by ICANT
11-13-2011 2:14 AM


Re: look at what the God characters say
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not to add to the commandments of the Torah, whether in the Written Law or in its interpretation received by tradition (Deut. 13:1)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have no idea what you are quoting.
It says not to add to the Hebrew laws. It is one of the 613 commandments in the Hebrew bible, and you asked for proof.
quote:
The only place I know of a scripture that comes close in in:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This has nothing to do with the Torah. In fact it only has to do with the book of Revelation.
I don't think so. The precedence factor rules. It is blatant the Gospels negated many commandments, not because of any revelation, but because Christianity cannot sustain itself if it did not do so. Divine man and image worship caused great existential issues for the Jews with a host of nations. IMHO, the premise of an indescribable and indefinable Creator is vindicated as correct today.
quote:
Now you keep telling me that the copyist could not add to or take away from the text concerning the flood or anything else in the Torah.
Yet you change the size of the ark making it half the size it was and you leave a lot of critters off the ark.
The size of the arc aligns only with one large family and their domestic life forms. I changed nothing.
quote:
You also state that all the dry earth was not covered with water when the text declares that all the high hills under the whole heavens was covered with water.
You are quoting selective half sentences which cntradict other pivotal verses.
quote:
You state only domestic animals of Noah's household was on the ark, when the text declares 2 of all flesh that had the breath of life went into the ark to Noah.
"Of Noah's household".
quote:
So don't tell me no body can add to the text or take any thing away from the text because you sure can.
Absolutely I am saying that. Why do you think Judaism and Christianity are different religions!?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by ICANT, posted 11-13-2011 2:14 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by ICANT, posted 11-13-2011 3:21 PM IamJoseph has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 115 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 264 of 306 (640825)
11-13-2011 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by IamJoseph
11-13-2011 5:51 AM


Re: look at what the God characters say
Hi Joseph,
IamJoseph writes:
quote:
quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not to add to the commandments of the Torah, whether in the Written Law or in its interpretation received by tradition (Deut. 13:1)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have no idea what you are quoting.
It says not to add to the Hebrew laws. It is one of the 613 commandments in the Hebrew bible, and you asked for proof.
Can you read English?
In Message 262 I quoted Deut. 13:1-3, I will do verse 1 here again.
quote:
Deut. 13:1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
That verse says absolutely nothing about adding to or taking away from the Hebrew laws.
IamJoseph writes:
The size of the arc aligns only with one large family and their domestic life forms. I changed nothing.
You keep making that assertion. But when I ask you what animals Noah had on the ark you refuse to give me a list of what kind and how many there are.
You just resort to your assertion which you believe makes it true.
Lets examine what domestic life forms Noah would have.
7 oxen allowed
7 cows allowed.
7 bison allowed.
7 wild deer allowed. But you say no wild animals. Not allowed.
7 sheep allowed.
7 goats allowed.
7 Gazelle allowed.
7 Giraffe allowed.
7 chickens allowed.
7 doves allowed.
If the following was not wild they would be allowed.
7 ducks allowed.
7 geese allowed.
7 turkeys allowed.
2 Rahvins not allowed according to you as they would have been wild.
2 horses allowed.
2 asses allowed.
2 tame cats allowed.
2 tame dogs allowed.
That is all that I can come up with so go over the list and if I left out anything please present them.
IamJoseph writes:
You are quoting selective half sentences which cntradict other pivotal verses.
Then give me the verses they contradict.
IamJoseph writes:
"Of Noah's household".
Give me the verse that says 2 of all flesh that had the breath of life went into the ark to Noah, of Noah's household.
IamJoseph writes:
Why do you think Judaism and Christianity are different religions!?
Judaism was composed of the descendants of Isaac the son of Abraham and Sarah.
The ten commandments was given to those descendents as well as all the other laws found in Leviticus and Deuteronomy.
That means the flood happened over 857 years prior to the law being given.
So why are we discussing clean and unclean animals.
Why are you putting Noah under the Law given by Moses?
The Law given to Moses by God and to the children of Israel did not exist when the flood took place.
Abraham was not under the Law given to Moses. That is why it is said of him that he believed God and it was counted unto him righteousness.
Juadism was a system of government of laws given to the descendents of Isaac. The people had to meet certain requirements to satisfy God which was done by obeying Him in works and deeds.
Jesus came and nailed the Law to the tree, taking it out of the way.
quote:
Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Jesus replaced all the Law given to Moses with two laws.
quote:
Matthew 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Christanity is living by faith, as did Abraham.
But if you desire to discuss this sideline please start a thread and not clutter this one up any further. We only have 36 posts left.
You have left behind a lot of unanswred questions.
What is your definition of 'ALL' when placed in front of flesh?
What is your definition of 'WHOLE' when placed in front of heavens?
What is your definition of 'EVERY' when placed in front of creeping thing?
What is your definition of 'ALL' and 'WHOLE' in the following text?
quote:
Genesis 7:19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
What is your definition of בית transliterated bayith?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by IamJoseph, posted 11-13-2011 5:51 AM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by IamJoseph, posted 11-13-2011 7:55 PM ICANT has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18389
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 265 of 306 (640828)
11-13-2011 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by jar
11-02-2011 9:15 PM


Re: look at what the God characters say
jar writes:
...In fact it's almost certain that the Ten Commandments were NEVER given, that Moses never existed, that the Exodus is just another myth.
Wow! Moses never existed? This blows me away!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by jar, posted 11-02-2011 9:15 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by IamJoseph, posted 11-13-2011 7:46 PM Phat has not replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3756 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 266 of 306 (640864)
11-13-2011 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by Phat
11-13-2011 3:30 PM


Re: look at what the Atheist characters say
quote:
Wow! Moses never existed? This blows me away!
Lets be fair here. They said this of King David, who lived a mere 250 years after Moses. Then there was the Tel Dan discovery - and those so-called scholars have never recovered from their shame. There is more evidences [as opposed hard proof] of Moses than Jesus and every name listed in the NT!
Here's more what atheists don't say of the Hebrew bible:
It is the first alphabetical book; it introduced the universe as finite [there was a 'beginning']; the world turns by Hebrew laws exclusively [none come from any other source!]; Evolution comes from Genesis [the first listing of life form categories]; we have no 'NAME' older than Adam; the oldest active calendar is the Hebrew [5772 years]; it introduced Creationism and Monotheism - world and universe altering equations; over 70% of the Hebrew bible is scientifically proven.
A lie by omission is - surprise, surprise! - a lie.
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD
Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.
Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by Phat, posted 11-13-2011 3:30 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by Butterflytyrant, posted 11-14-2011 6:28 AM IamJoseph has replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3756 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 267 of 306 (640866)
11-13-2011 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 264 by ICANT
11-13-2011 3:21 PM


LET THE TRUTH SET YOU FREE - OR EXPOSE A LIE.
quote:
Can you read English?
What ails thee o knight of arms, alone and palely loitering?
You denied the law not to add or subtract as one of the commandments in the Hebrew bible, and I produced it for you - with indexed reference where it appears in one of the five books of Moses. Also, I pointed out this was the fundamental cause of the break between Christianity and Judaism. Then I pointed to you, what you quote as Gospel is incorrect, namely it is in fact from the Hebrew bible - and that the precedent factor rules.
A lie by omission is - surprise, surprise - a lie.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by ICANT, posted 11-13-2011 3:21 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by ICANT, posted 11-15-2011 11:08 AM IamJoseph has replied

  
Butterflytyrant
Member (Idle past 4509 days)
Posts: 415
From: Australia
Joined: 06-28-2011


Message 268 of 306 (640903)
11-14-2011 6:28 AM
Reply to: Message 266 by IamJoseph
11-13-2011 7:46 PM


Re: look at what the Atheist characters say
IamJoseph,
They said this of King David, who lived a mere 250 years after Moses. Then there was the Tel Dan discovery - and those so-called scholars have never recovered from their shame.
You have said this a few times in various posts. At one stage there was no evidence of King David, so the scholars assumed there was no King David. The other option would be to assume that King David existed when there was no evidence. Do you see a problem with that? Then after the discovery of the Tel Dan Stelle, there was a fair bit of controversy with regards to the translation of the text. The concensus is now that the words 'Israel' and 'house of david' do appear on the Stelle. As this is new evidence, the opinions of the scholars changed. There is no shame in waiting until there is evidence before supporting a position. There is also no shame in changing your position after new evidence is found. It is called intellectual honesty. I know you are unfamiliar with the concept but try to understand it.
There is more evidences [as opposed hard proof] of Moses than Jesus and every name listed in the NT!
More evidence of Moses than every name listed in the NT? What about Ramesses? Or Augustus Caesar? If you want a religious figure with more evidence you cant go past Sathya Sai Baba the Hindu mystic. He has hundreds of thousands of living people who testify to witnessing his miracles. That is hundreds of thousands of contemporary eyewitness accounts of events such as levitation (both indoors and outdoors), bilocation, physical disappearances, changing granite into sugar candy, changing water into another drink, changing water into gasoline, producing objects on demand, changing the color of his gown while wearing it, multiplying food, healing acute and chronic diseases, appearing in visions and dreams, making different fruits appear on any tree hanging from actual stems, controlling the weather, physically transforming into various deities and physically emitting brilliant light. (Source : Sathya Sai Baba - Wikipedia)
this is not some bronze age book that is a copy of a copy (of a copy of a copy etc) with multiple different versions. These are eyewitness accounts.
Sathya Sai Baba beats Moses and Jesus combined on this count.
Here's more what atheists don't say of the Hebrew bible:
Not just athiests disagree with your position. Members of every other faith, athiests, agnostics and even your fellow Jews disagree with a lot of what you say. Its not just Athiests verses the Hebrew Bible, it is IamJosephs unverified, wild assertions vs pretty much everyone else in the world. You often seem to suggest or imply in your posts that your claims are supported by scholars or evidence. Most often your claims are based on strange and nonsensical interpretations of biblical texts or contain arguements that are supported by 'facts' that are unsupported, unverified, unsourced, not supported by scholars and professionals in the field or plain old totally wrong.
for example -
It is the first alphabetical book; it introduced the universe as finite [there was a 'beginning']; the world turns by Hebrew laws exclusively [none come from any other source!]; Evolution comes from Genesis [the first listing of life form categories]; we have no 'NAME' older than Adam; the oldest active calendar is the Hebrew [5772 years]; it introduced Creationism...
All of this is wrong. Not one of these claims is supported by the evidence. Evidence that has been supplied to you in various threads. Evidence that can be found with a simple google search. All of it is your personal opinion. It is not based on any factual evidence.
Not only that but all of it contradicted by real factual evidence. I know this wont stop you ranting and raving because you are a fundamentalist lunatic. You have no desire to be cured of your lunacy. Other readers just need to know that what you are saying is not supported by evidence and is the opinion of one, single fundamentalist.
...and Monotheism...
Great, so Judaism may have introduced the idea of one god. Is one god better than many gods? A lot of people hold the position that no gods at all are better than one god. Why do you think coming up with monotheism is an achievement?
...world and universe altering equations...
Less than half of the population of the world belongs to one of the Abrahamic religions (Christianity, Judaism, Islam). More than half of the population of the world belongs to a different religious group or accepts no religion at all. You are correct in saying that the Old Testament has changed the world, but for the majority of people, it has been a negative change. Congratulations. The universe has not been impacted in any way by the Old Testament. This claim is ridiculous. Why do you think that the Hebrew laws changed the universe? The important ones are seen elsewhere at earlier times eg The Code of Hammurabi or developed independantly of the influence of Judaism eg. early Chinese law codes, Native American laws etc. How has any of your claims changed any part of the universe outside of this one planet?
...over 70% of the Hebrew bible is scientifically proven.
Pure conjecture. Not only do you not know that this is true, there is no way for you to know if this could be true. I have questioned you on it before and you have not been able to support the claim.
Can you provide the complete list of facts that are in the Old Testament? This would be the starting point to establishing what percentage of the facts have been scientifically proven. You dont have this vital piece of information. This claim is pure fantasy. You imagining something does not make it a fact.
A lie by omission is - surprise, surprise! - a lie.
You dont seem to have a problem with lying. Stating claims as facts without having any way of even knowing if they are facts is intellectual dishonesty. Making claims that a demonstratively is the very definition of lying. This is a common habit of yours.
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

I could agree with you, but then we would both be wrong
Butterfly, AKA, mallethead - Dawn Bertot
"Superstitions and nonsense from the past should not prevent us from making progress. If we hold ourselves back, we admit that our fears are more powerful than our abilities." Hunters of Dune Herbert & Anderson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by IamJoseph, posted 11-13-2011 7:46 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by IamJoseph, posted 11-14-2011 7:10 AM Butterflytyrant has replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3756 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 269 of 306 (640905)
11-14-2011 7:10 AM
Reply to: Message 268 by Butterflytyrant
11-14-2011 6:28 AM


Re: look at what the Atheist characters say
quote:
called scholars have never recovered from their shame.
You have said this a few times in various posts. At one stage there was no evidence of King David, so the scholars assumed there was no King David. The other option would be to assume that King David existed when there was no evidence. Do you see a problem with that?
Yes, I do see a big problem with those scholars. There was loads of evidence [tho no hard proof]; their pronouncements were short sighted and it ignored blatant indicators; they had no merit in making their statements and using terms as myth. How wrong were they!
quote:
Then after the discovery of the Tel Dan Stelle, there was a fair bit of controversy with regards to the translation of the text. The concensus is now that the words 'Israel' and 'house of david' do appear on the Stelle. As this is new evidence, the opinions of the scholars changed. There is no shame in waiting until there is evidence before supporting a position. There is also no shame in changing your position after new evidence is found. It is called intellectual honesty. I know you are unfamiliar with the concept but try to understand it.
There is no shame in being genuinely wrong - but there was too fast a gun off the hip here; obviously agenda based and biased. The so called scholars did not just say there was no proof; they ignored loads of evidences and indicators and used words such as total myth. You are white washing their unscholarly behaviour.
quote:
There is more evidences [as opposed hard proof] of Moses than Jesus and every name listed in the NT!
More evidence of Moses than every name listed in the NT? What about Ramesses? Or Augustus Caesar?
I referred to the figures of Christianity, such as Jesus, the apostles, Mary, a Roman trial, Judas, etc - there is no proof of any of these figures, despite this was in relatively a far more advanced, modern time when writings was commonplace. Yet you target the Hebrew bible, where some 70% is already proven of a most ancient period - why is that?
quote:
If you want a religious figure with more evidence you cant go past Sathya Sai Baba the Hindu mystic. He has hundreds of thousands of living people who testify to witnessing his miracles. That is hundreds of thousands of contemporary eyewitness accounts of events such as levitation (both indoors and outdoors), bilocation, physical disappearances, changing granite into sugar candy, changing water into another drink, changing water into gasoline, producing objects on demand, changing the color of his gown while wearing it, multiplying food, healing acute and chronic diseases, appearing in visions and dreams, making different fruits appear on any tree hanging from actual stems, controlling the weather, physically transforming into various deities and physically emitting brilliant light. (Source : Sathya Sai Baba - Wikipedia)
Not my call; I have not researched this.
quote:
this is not some bronze age book that is a copy of a copy (of a copy of a copy etc) with multiple different versions. These are eyewitness accounts.
If you can evidence a 3,200 year figure as with David anyplace else in a writings - I will appreciate it. But I see this as quite difficult - aside from the Pharoahs very few examples are possible!
quote:
Sathya Sai Baba beats Moses and Jesus combined on this count.
Without disrespect of any revered figures, there is none more revered than Moses: by period of time; impact; and cencus [2B Christians; 1.5B Muslims; 14M Jews]. Do the maths - this beats JC, MO, Buddha, all others.
quote:
Great, so Judaism may have introduced the idea of one god. Is one god better than many gods? A lot of people hold the position that no gods at all are better than one god. Why do you think coming up with monotheism is an achievement?
There are only two possibilities here. Monotheism is one of them; many gods are not one of them. Not bad!
quote:
You are correct in saying that the Old Testament has changed the world, but for the majority of people, it has been a negative change. Congratulations.
The negative stuff can only be pointed at two religions, both in contradiction of each other, and who have commited the gravest crimes throughout their history. Nothing to do with the Hebrew bible which measures all equally and by their deeds only, giving none special treatment, regardless of their beliefs. This is not a negative thing.
quote:
The universe has not been impacted in any way by the Old Testament. This claim is ridiculous. Why do you think that the Hebrew laws changed the universe? The important ones are seen elsewhere at earlier times eg The Code of Hammurabi or developed independantly of the influence of Judaism eg. early Chinese law codes, Native American laws etc. How has any of your claims changed any part of the universe outside of this one planet?
Hamurabi is post Mosaic and steeped in head bashing dieties. The world turns by the 613 Hebrew laws - exclusively. Sounds unreasonable, but check it out.
quote:
...over 70% of the Hebrew bible is scientifically proven.
Pure conjecture. Not only do you not know that this is true, there is no way for you to know if this could be true. I have questioned you on it before and you have not been able to support the claim.
Can you provide the complete list of facts that are in the Old Testament? This would be the starting point to establishing what percentage of the facts have been scientifically proven. You dont have this vital piece of information. This claim is pure fantasy. You imagining something does not make it a fact.
Outside of the FX miracles, almost all the historical items are proven or evidenced. No scripture can match this.
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by Butterflytyrant, posted 11-14-2011 6:28 AM Butterflytyrant has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by Butterflytyrant, posted 11-14-2011 11:15 AM IamJoseph has replied

  
Butterflytyrant
Member (Idle past 4509 days)
Posts: 415
From: Australia
Joined: 06-28-2011


Message 270 of 306 (640922)
11-14-2011 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 269 by IamJoseph
11-14-2011 7:10 AM


Re: look at what the Atheist characters say
IamJoseph,
Notice how in your post you make a whole heap of claims with no supporting evience of any type. The only thing this suggests is that there is no supporting evidence.
Yes, I do see a big problem with those scholars. There was loads of evidence [tho no hard proof]; their pronouncements were short sighted and it ignored blatant indicators; they had no merit in making their statements and using terms as myth. How wrong were they!
Loads of evidence prior to the discovery of the stelle of the existence of King David? Lets take a look at that claim -
These quote are from the Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs
(Source - http://www.mfa.gov.il/...20Jerusalem-%20Myth%20and%20Reality)
To most Israelis it is axiomatic that the celebrations for the 3,000th anniversary of the conquest of Jerusalem by King David mark a real and tangible event; but this is far from certain. The biblical account of the capture of the city is the only one we have, and in the opinion of most modern scholars, the Bible is not an entirely reliable historical document. Corroborating evidence is required, and some indeed exists; but it is not conclusive. When all the available information has been assembled, the most that can be said is that there was probably an Israelite ruler called David, who made Jerusalem his capital sometime in the tenth century bce. However, the precise date cannot be determined, and consequently there is no way of knowing exactly when the anniversary falls.
And this part specifically about evidence for King David -
Until very recently, there was no evidence outside the Bible for the existence of King David. There are no references to him in Egyptian, Syrian or Assyrian documents of the time, and the many archaeological digs in the City of David failed to turn up so much as a mention of his name. Then, on July 21, 1993, a team of archaeologists led by Prof. Avraham Biran, excavating Tel Dan in the northern Galilee, found a triangular piece of basalt rock, measuring 23 x 36 cm. inscribed in Aramaic. It was subsequently identified as part of a victory pillar erected by the king of Syria and later smashed by an Israelite ruler. The inscription, which dates to the ninth century bce, that is to say, about a century after David was thought to have ruled Israel, includes the words Beit David ("House" or "Dynasty" of David"). It is the first near-contemporaneous reference to David ever found. It is not conclusive; but it does strongly indicate that a king called David established a dynasty in Israel during the relevant period.
So according to the State of Israel, until the finding of the Stelle there was "no evidence outside the Bible for the existence of King David". What constitutes the "loads of evidence" that you claim existed that the State of Israel was unaware of?
The scholars, including Jewish scholars had no evidence of the existence of King David. Scholars with no evidence of the existence of a person cannot honestly claim he existed. Some scholars can advise that they BELIEVE he existed becaue of the teachings of their faith. However, until the Stelle was found, no scholar, from any faith could say that evidence existed to support the exitence of King David. There was merit in their statements that King David did not exist. There was no evidence to say that he did exist.
There is no shame in being genuinely wrong - but there was too fast a gun off the hip here; obviously agenda based and biased. The so called scholars did not just say there was no proof; they ignored loads of evidences and indicators and used words such as total myth. You are white washing their unscholarly behaviour.
Agenda based and biased? What agenda is the State of Israel pushing when they report that until the finding of the Stelle there was "no evidence outside the Bible for the existence of King David". Why would the State of Israel be biased against Judaism when the report that until the location of the Stelle there was "no evidence outside the Bible for the existence of King David". The so called scholars you are referring to include Jewish archeologists. They did not ignore evidence. There was no evidence to ignore.
I referred to the figures of Christianity, such as Jesus, the apostles, Mary, a Roman trial, Judas, etc - there is no proof of any of these figures, despite this was in relatively a far more advanced, modern time when writings was commonplace. Yet you target the Hebrew bible, where some 70% is already proven of a most ancient period - why is that?
So when you said this -
quote:
There is more evidences [as opposed hard proof] of Moses than Jesus and every name listed in the NT!
what you actually menat to say was -
There is more evidences [as opposed hard proof] of Moses than Jesus and every name listed in the NT apart from all of the names that refute this statement.
Gotcha.
Also, I dont target the Hebrew Bible or even mention it anywhere in that quote.
Not my call; I have not researched this.
So you have not researched one of the most famous Hindu mystics that ever lived. A mystic who outperformed Jesus in regards to miracles with many current, living eyewitneses. You are unaware of this man, yet seem to believe you have made an educated decision with regards to your faith. He out performs Moses and Jesus combined. I get the feeling from most of your posts that if you dont know about something, it does not exist.
If you can evidence a 3,200 year figure as with David anyplace else in a writings - I will appreciate it. But I see this as quite difficult - aside from the Pharoahs very few examples are possible!
So aside from the many pharoahs names recorded that are older than 1200 BCE. So you have something that refutes your position and you are asking for another set of names that refute your position? The list of pharoah names refutes your position but you dont count them because???
How many different ways would you like your point refuted before you are willing to accept it?
I will give you a whole list of names. (It also included geneologies, nations, towns, cities, rivers and the word day)
The Sumerian Kinglist has dozens of names on it. There are not one, not two or three but sixteen known copies containing sections of this list. The oldest four sources used when discussing this list date from 2000BCE, 1817 BCE, 1712 BCE, 1250 BCE.
Here is an overview from wiki - Sumerian King List - Wikipedia
here is the complete English translation - Error 404 - Livius
Without disrespect of any revered figures, there is none more revered than Moses: by period of time; impact; and cencus [2B Christians; 1.5B Muslims; 14M Jews]. Do the maths - this beats JC, MO, Buddha, all others.
Nice attempt to shift the goal posts. My comment was about evidence for proof of existence, not who was revered the most. Lots of kids love Santa, the Easter bunny, the tooth fairy, dorathy the dinosaur etc. This does not prove that they exist.
How many contemporary eyewitness accounts do you have for any of the actions of Moses?
Here are 59 photographs of Sathya Sai Baba.
Can you provide any evidence that proves the existence of Moses that comes close to a photograph?
There are only two possibilities here. Monotheism is one of them; many gods are not one of them. Not bad!
So according to you there are two possibilities. Monotheism is one, polytheism is not. So that leaves another possibility???
There are actually three possibilities.
1. Monotheism
2. polytheism
3. No gods at all.
My questions is what makes monotheism better than the other two options. You did not address that question. You types a sentence that does not really make sense, then you congratualated yourself for it.
The negative stuff can only be pointed at two religions, both in contradiction of each other, and who have commited the gravest crimes throughout their history. Nothing to do with the Hebrew bible which measures all equally and by their deeds only, giving none special treatment, regardless of their beliefs. This is not a negative thing.
Oh, ok, so the Jews have not had any negative effect on anyone. Any suffering going on anywhere in the world will have "nothing to do with the Hebrew Bible".
How exactly are Christianity and Islam to blame for this Israeli bulldozer destroying civilian homes? -
How exactly are Christianity and Islam to blame for these Israeli citizens, including child assaulting a palistinian woman?
How exactly are Christianity and Islam to blame for this child being shot?
Your faith is to blame for the things occuring in those images.
Hamurabi is post Mosaic and steeped in head bashing dieties. The world turns by the 613 Hebrew laws - exclusively. Sounds unreasonable, but check it out.
I checked it out and guess what? You are wrong again.
Code of Hammurabi - 1780 BCE
read about it here - Code of Hammurabi - Wikipedia
That code of laws was around nearly 400 years before Moses was born.
quote:
The Code of Hammurabi was one of several sets of laws in the ancient Near East.
The code of laws was arranged in orderly groups, so that everyone who read the laws, would know what was required of them. Earlier collections of laws include the Code of Ur-Nammu, king of Ur (ca. 2050 BC), the Laws of Eshnunna (ca. 1930 BC) and the codex of Lipit-Ishtar of Isin (ca. 1870 BC), while later ones include the Hittite laws, the Assyrian laws, and Mosaic Law.
Or there is the Lipit-Ishtar - 1930 BCE
read about it here - Lipit-Ishtar - Wikipedia
or there is the Laws of Eshnunna - 2000 BCE
read about them here - Laws of Eshnunna - Wikipedia
or there is the Code of Ur-Nammu - 2100 BCE
read about it here - Code of Ur-Nammu - Wikipedia
Is four law codes written up to 700 years before Moses was born covering all of the major laws sufficient to refute your statement that the Hebrew laws were the first laws and that "the world turns by the 613 Hebrew laws - exclusively."?
How many different ways do you have to be proven wrong before you will admit it? Are you now going to claim that the only real laws were written in Hebrew supposedly by a guy whose name starts with an 'M' to be real laws?
Outside of the FX miracles, almost all the historical items are proven or evidenced. No scripture can match this.
hmmm. it seems you are trying to distance yourself from your own claim here.
Let me refresh your memory as to what you actually said (and have said more than once)
quote:
over 70% of the Hebrew bible is scientifically proven
and
quote:
Yet you target the Hebrew bible, where some 70% is already proven of a most ancient period - why is that?
Now answer the question. How many facts are there in the Old Testament. In order to give a mathmatical percentage you need two numbers.
In this case, you would need 'a' - the total number of facts and 'b' - the total number of facts that have been scientifically verified to be true.
You have two choices, either supply those two figures or admit that you are making things up.
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

I could agree with you, but then we would both be wrong
Butterfly, AKA, mallethead - Dawn Bertot
"Superstitions and nonsense from the past should not prevent us from making progress. If we hold ourselves back, we admit that our fears are more powerful than our abilities." Hunters of Dune Herbert & Anderson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by IamJoseph, posted 11-14-2011 7:10 AM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by IamJoseph, posted 11-14-2011 8:38 PM Butterflytyrant has not replied
 Message 272 by IamJoseph, posted 11-14-2011 8:45 PM Butterflytyrant has replied

  
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