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Author Topic:   Biology is Destiny?
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 129 (641759)
11-22-2011 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Tangle
11-22-2011 7:04 AM


Re: Neurology kills Free Will
Demonstrating that Free Will isn't actually free or equal and is mutable removes religion's claim on morality, kills original sin and does not require a saviour to sacrifice himself to save us from it.

Pretty much game over for theism I'd say.

Its not for me. In my view, the mind is a gateway from the spiritual to the physical, and it stems from the brain. Damage the gateway, and the spirit doesn't come through the same way. Brain damage affecting behavior doesn't negate the spirit, for me.

I was gonna reply to an earlier post a couple days ago but didn't get around to it... I'm not gonna go fish it out now, and my respose was gonna be somewhat flippant... regarding the issue with not know where culpability lies because of the way that behavior is affected by the brain, I was gonna say something along the lines of how having a dualistic nature does get you around the conundrum, doesn't it?

Whether or not dualism can work, is beside the point that its can act as a band-aid for the problem, no?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Tangle, posted 11-22-2011 7:04 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Tangle, posted 11-22-2011 10:37 AM New Cat's Eye has responded
 Message 32 by Modulous, posted 11-22-2011 11:06 AM New Cat's Eye has responded
 Message 36 by Straggler, posted 11-22-2011 2:19 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded
 Message 37 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-22-2011 2:24 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 129 (641770)
11-22-2011 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Tangle
11-22-2011 10:37 AM


Re: Neurology kills Free Will
Sheesh. Well you can, of course, just make stuff up to fill the yawning gap

Of course I can

but really, no, it doesn't solve the problem.

Awe, darn. I thought it could.

The problem being that the main argument is not about damage - that just proves the fact that brain configuration affect moral behaviour - it's the fact that our brains are not identical that's the problem. We must all have different starting positions in dealing with moral problems, for some of us it will be easier than others to behave morally. That is plainly unfair if we are later to be judged on it.

Okay, so its unfair. But it could still be there nonetheless.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Tangle, posted 11-22-2011 10:37 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 129 (641780)
11-22-2011 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Modulous
11-22-2011 11:06 AM


Re: Neurology kills Free Will
Doesn't falsify the unfalsifiable notion of a disembodied spirit having some unspecified effect on behaviour, of course.

It doesn't falsify the notion of the CIA controlling our behaviour through invisible thought-rays, either.

Yeah, but I don't have any reason to think the CIA's involved...

Have you really thought about what role the spirit has in all this?

Not so much. Too much thinking is dangerous to faith-based ideas

It isn't making the final moral decisions since apparently (research that the OP puts forward) the brain seems to have veto powers, even when it has sustained damage.

I've always thought of it as an underlying nudger rather than an all out controller. The mind controls the body and its actions, the spirit influences the mind, but so does the brain (because the mind stems from the brain). And I suppose the spirit can be affected as well... from the phyical world, to the body/brain, then through the mind on to the spirit.

Edited by Catholic Scientist, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Modulous, posted 11-22-2011 11:06 AM Modulous has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 129 (641814)
11-22-2011 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Straggler
11-22-2011 1:47 PM


Re: Neurology kills Free Will
You seem to be claiming the 'mind' as some sort of intermediary between the physical and the immaterial spirit. I am intrigued by this idea and how you see it working.

Given the example in the OP what do you think happens to the spirit as a result of the physical tumour? Anything at all? Is this spirit self a version of 'you' that is free from all physical effects? Or just some? Is it a version of you that is free from behaviour affecting hormones (e.g. testosterone)? Free from disease (e.g. alzheimers)? Free from the effects of ageing? Free from the effects of all physical experience?

Is this spirit version of 'you' something that exists unchanged your entire life? If it does change then what things cause it to change and what things don't? How do you decide?

Well fuck, I don't know. I supose I could speculate for you, but I'm just making this shit up:

I'd see the mind as the gateway to the spirit. The mind is housed in the brain, lets say its a lense. If you mess with the brain, or mess with the glass in the lense, then what you see that has came through has changed. Not necessarily changed on the other side, but the result you see is different.

The physical affects the mind, so when the sprit is comming through that affected lense, it could be distorted. Here, comming through would be the outward expression of your behavior and/or the inward experssion of your thoughts, which too, can end up deciding your behvior. Its as if we're all a bunch of spiritual beings tapped into this physical world as a way to interact with each other and develop in preparation for the afterlife, which is entirely spiritual. I also see the spirit as emerging along with physical body, as if there isn't a place where the spirit sits around existing waiting for a body, but rather that the spirit emerges as the individual does.

So Fred (from the OP) seemed to not have a pedophilic spirit, but it came out as pedophilic after being distorted by his mind, because of the tumor in his brain. This assumes there's qualities to the spirit that affect our behaviors.

I do think the sprit could change too. As you get older and have interacted with so many people (other spirits) and learned so much, you grow spiritually too. You might even get more bitter. I see young children as less spiritually developed as adults. I think our spirits need this time here in the physical world, so they can interact with other spirits through the minds of the people as they physically interact. So yes, I'd see things like hormones and disease having an indirect effect on the spirit, as long as they affected your mind. So the stubbing of your toe, itself, would not affect your spirit, but how that impacted you mind, say through anger or something, could and/or would.

I suppose that underdeveloped spirits might have an afterlife similiar to underdeveloped people in the physical worlds do, a gradually limited view down to nothing at all. Too, maybe some of those monks have an overdevloped spirit that plays a more significant role in the afterlife.

I think that there are some genuinely bad people, as if they had an evil spirit or something, and visa versa. I don't know if they'd have started out predisposed that way, or if it would have been a result of how their spirit developed, or maybe a little of both.

What do you think constitutes a valid reason for the believing that a disembodied spirit is responsible?

I don't really take the stance that the spirit actually does exist. I honestly don't know. I approach it form the angle of, assuming it does exist, what would what we do know about our world mean for that. And I prefer to keep things consistant. So obviously the brain affects the mind... if the spirit exists, what would this mean for it... If the spirit doesn't exist, then this is just mental masturbation.

CS writes:

Yeah, but I don't have any reason to think the CIA's involved...


Well what would constitute a valid reason for thinking that the CIA were using undetectable thought rays?

You changed it from invisible to undetectable.... how would the CIA even know if they were using undetectable rays?

"Have you fired the undetectable rays?" "I dunno, sir, but I'm not detecting them."


So I wrote out my reply, and then have been distracted awat from my desk a few times, and then have been going back and adding struff in here and there so hopefully its not too disjointed.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Straggler, posted 11-22-2011 1:47 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Tangle, posted 11-22-2011 2:48 PM New Cat's Eye has responded
 Message 43 by Straggler, posted 11-22-2011 4:21 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 129 (641816)
11-22-2011 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Tangle
11-22-2011 2:48 PM


Re: Neurology kills Free Will
Why go to all that effort when it looks like we're beginnning to get some realworld, actual answers?

I was asked, it isn't that much effort, and I like it. As I said, mental masturbation.

Anyways, what actual answers are we beginning to get?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Tangle, posted 11-22-2011 2:48 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Tangle, posted 11-22-2011 3:37 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded
 Message 42 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-22-2011 3:49 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
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