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Author Topic:   Time and Beginning to Exist
Phat
Member
Posts: 14752
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 43 of 289 (642197)
11-26-2011 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by PaulK
11-26-2011 9:50 AM


Re: Atemporal Causation And Logic
Im not sure exactly how to frame my argument, or if I even have one, since I am attempting to explain my thoughts...but here it goes:

In your example, you say to imagine a universe which has existed for all time. If I had existed in any way, shape, form, or possibility at the moment of the singularity, I would be unable to imagine any sequence of events. Thus, the only way I can question, compare, or challenge any idea that may have existed before me is through the gift of life, awareness, and thinking...made possible by and through the reality of time.

My point is irrelevant, I know...in that I in fact am able to question, form sane (or nonsensical) observations, comparisons, and references to spheres, cones, planes, and other objects of geometric imagination made possible, again, by this thing called time.

Were there no human observers, philosophers, and thinkers even in existence..but simply a supercomputer recording every bit of data from the initial observation of time, what sort of data might we expect to find? Of course, the question of how this supercomputer was/is programmed is a moot point.

perhaps a useful question to consider is this: Would philosophy have any meaning in the absence of a human presence?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by PaulK, posted 11-26-2011 9:50 AM PaulK has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-26-2011 2:38 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14752
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 269 of 289 (881659)
08-27-2020 8:08 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by PaulK
11-22-2011 10:21 AM


Dredging up old topics from the archive
This was an interesting topic that you started, PaulK. I was going to drop my speculation directed at Pastor ICANT here, but did not for two reasons.
1) My observation is philosophical more than it is scientific
2) ICANT never participated in your topic.

I do note that this was a good topic, however, and am bumping it to stimulate Forum conversation and to stir the pot a bit.

Note my response to you in this topic. You never replied.

Phat in 2011 writes:

Im not sure exactly how to frame my argument, or if I even have one, since I am attempting to explain my thoughts...but here it goes:

In your example, you say to imagine a universe which has existed for all time. If I had existed in any way, shape, form, or possibility at the moment of the singularity, I would be unable to imagine any sequence of events. Thus, the only way I can question, compare, or challenge any idea that may have existed before me is through the gift of life, awareness, and thinking...made possible by and through the reality of time.

My point is irrelevant, I know...in that I in fact am able to question, form sane (or nonsensical) observations, comparisons, and references to spheres, cones, planes, and other objects of geometric imagination made possible, again, by this thing called time.

Were there no human observers, philosophers, and thinkers even in existence..but simply a supercomputer recording every bit of data from the initial observation of time, what sort of data might we expect to find? Of course, the question of how this supercomputer was/is programmed is a moot point.

perhaps a useful question to consider is this: Would philosophy have any meaning in the absence of a human presence?

Edited by Phat, : added my lone post in Pauls topic

Edited by Phat, : spelling


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by PaulK, posted 11-22-2011 10:21 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by PaulK, posted 08-28-2020 1:37 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14752
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 270 of 289 (881662)
08-27-2020 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Dr Adequate
11-26-2011 2:38 PM


Lets Pick Up Where We Left Off
Dr.Adequate writes:

I too am unclear as to what your argument is, but see the last paragraph of my previous post.

It took me 9 years to respond, but lets pick up where we left off.

The whole reason that I dredged this topic up from the archives was because of its title. Time and Beginning to Exist. I was looking for a place to drop a reply that I felt inspired to write just after waking up this morning. Message 2650

Its funny though. I was in this same weird frame of mind 9 years ago when I wrote what I did in this topic. Comments, Dr.A? PaulK? Anybody?

AbE: I realize of course that this is a science topic so I likely wont have much I can say.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-26-2011 2:38 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14752
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 272 of 289 (881733)
08-28-2020 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 271 by PaulK
08-28-2020 1:37 AM


Framing The Issue Using Definitions
Agreed. Lets reexamine this old topic.
PaulK in Topic Starter writes:

The purpose of this topic is to discuss the notion "Everything that begins to exist has a cause" and it's relationship to our Universe and the implications of a finite past.
"Everything that begins to exist has a cause" is an intuitive idea, notably lacking a rigorous definition of "beginning to exist". We must take it then, to refer to the beginnings of everyday experience. In everyday experience the thing does not exist, the cause operates and then the thing exists. And, intuitively the cause is responsible for the change from the state where the object in question does not exist to a state where it does.

Now consider the case of the first moment of time. For everything that exists at that moment of time there is no prior state when it did not exist, and if a cause is needed it is not needed to bring the object into existence, for that simple reason that it already exists. Thus if we take these objects to have a beginning it is one different from the every day beginnings - and in a way that would seem to remove the need for a cause.

To save the argument then, we need a rigorous definition of "beginning to exist", we need to show that it is in fact true that everything that meets this definition has a cause - taking care to deal with the extreme cases - and we need to accept this definition when building on the argument.

I read some of your posts and am intrigued with your discussion. Of course as a "believer" I would (as would William Lane Craig) refer to the concept of GOD as an uncaused first cause. At best we can skirt that issue philosophically and it does not seem to be the focus of your topic. You have stated before that you are an atheist, so lets put GOD on the back burner for now.

PaulK writes:

Something that exists at the first moment of time cannot be said to come into existence because there is no prior point in which it did not exist. Since it did not come into existence it does not need a cause to make it come into existence.

This seems logical. You further explained your position:
PaulK writes:

Nothing that exists at the first moment of time came into existence AT ALL because it was never the case that they did not exist.

And thus we can but discuss such ideas philosophically and hypothetically though science has offered some interesting hypothesis.

Creationists often invoke the catch-all phrase "God did it" which explains nothing. Critics could well claim that "Math explains it" or that QM explains it and would in fact be using these scientific disciplines to explain a beginning point in time. They could further argue that if the creationist claimed that God was eternally before that first point when time began, then so too could be immaterial concepts such as mathematics, calculus, and ideas in general.

The creationist might object and claim that humans began to exist and thus any thoughts generated by and through them also were compiled after the fact.

The counter argument would be that there is no reason that math, calculus, and chemical (or the elemental table) may fairly be said to have an uncaused first cause. In other words, truth is eternal.

PaulK writes:

To the best of my knowledge many cosmologists are happy with alternative ideas (e.g Eternal Inflation).

My understanding is that it is entirely possible that there are other regions of spacetime in addition to our universe, possibly with an infinite past.

So are you a materialist? A materialistic determinist? Do we have any reason to believe that it makes as much sense to speculate that matter is eternal as it would be to speculate that God is eternal?

I need to look up some definitions that we can refer to as this conversation continues.

Eternal Inflation

Definitions which can help objectify and define our course of discussion.

Materialism
Monism
Priority monism states that all existing things go back to a source that is distinct from them; e.g., in Neoplatonism everything is derived from The One.[1] In this view only one thing is ontologically basic or prior to everything else.
Existence monism posits that, strictly speaking, there exists only a single thing, the universe, which can only be artificially and arbitrarily divided into many things.[2]
Substance monism asserts that a variety of existing things can be explained in terms of a single reality or substance.[3] Substance monism posits that only one kind of stuff exists, although many things may be made up of this stuff, e.g., matter or mind.
Dual-aspect monism is the view that the mental and the physical are two aspects of, or perspectives on, the same substance.

Monad

The circled dot was used by the Pythagoreans and later Greeks to represent the first metaphysical being, the Monad or the Absolute.

Edited by Phat, : added Wiki link

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by PaulK, posted 08-28-2020 1:37 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by PaulK, posted 08-28-2020 4:17 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14752
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 274 of 289 (881784)
08-30-2020 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 273 by PaulK
08-28-2020 4:17 PM


Re: Framing The Issue Using Definitions
PaulK writes:

...In my view mind is supervenient on physical phenomena.

Wow! New word!
Wordnik writes:

Coming in upon something as additional or extraneous; superadvenient; added; additional; following in close conjunction.
adj.
Coming as something additional or extraneous; coming afterwards.
adj.
In a relationship with another set such that membership in the other set implies membership in the present set

So which is it? Mind over Matter or Matter over Mind?


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by PaulK, posted 08-28-2020 4:17 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by PaulK, posted 08-30-2020 2:24 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14752
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 276 of 289 (881787)
08-30-2020 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 275 by PaulK
08-30-2020 2:24 PM


Re: Framing The Issue Using Definitions
So would that then imply that Brain is over Mind?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by PaulK, posted 08-30-2020 2:24 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by PaulK, posted 08-30-2020 2:58 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14752
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 288 of 289 (882385)
09-20-2020 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 287 by Son Goku
09-02-2020 12:52 PM


Speculation within the limits of a science mind
I've got a couple of questions for you...but first I wanted to introduce everyone on the Forum to one of the podcasts that I listen to.

Ask Science Mike

He is not a Biblical Creationist, but he is/was a strong Christian. He is rather liberal, and he is articulate enough that I am starting to enjoy listening to him.

Now for my questions:

You are a quantum physics guy and you likely value science and evidence before you would consider belief. Do you agree with Tangle, who claims that religion is on its way out and that rational people will soon realize that scientific thought (or philosophical maths) is basically the best way to learn more about our overall purpose, destiny, and discovery of the universe(multiverse?) in which we reside...on a dust speck suspended in a sunbeam?

Ive been trying to argue with these guys here at EvC forever about my beliefs and why I believe the way I do and, thankfully, they never agree with or encourage me to continue on my present path.

Do you agree with their basic point that religion and the stories surrounding it are entirely made up or do you allow for the slim possibility that there is something unexplaineed beyond our current understanding?

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by Son Goku, posted 09-02-2020 12:52 PM Son Goku has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by Son Goku, posted 09-20-2020 9:46 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
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