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Author Topic:   A Problem With the Literal Interpretation of Scripture
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 12 of 304 (642979)
12-03-2011 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by GDR
11-29-2011 7:24 PM


Confusion
Hi GDR,

GDR writes:

How does a person who loves humble kindness and justice, the qualities of Yahweh that we see in Jesus Christ, worship the God that we see in those two passages if we take them as being literally true.

Easy, all you have to do is know what is being talked about and what Jehu was punished for.

You stopped quoting the text at the point that tells what Jehu did wrong that brought about the punishment mentioned in Hosea.

quote:
2 Kings 10:30 And the LORD said unto Jehu, Because thou hast done well in executing that which is right in mine eyes, and hast done unto the house of Ahab according to all that was in mine heart, thy children of the fourth generation shall sit on the throne of Israel.

10:31 But Jehu took no heed to walk in the law of the LORD God of Israel with all his heart: for he departed not from the sins of Jeroboam, which made Israel to sin.

10:32 In those days the LORD began to cut Israel short: and Hazael smote them in all the coasts of Israel;

10:33 From Jordan eastward, all the land of Gilead, the Gadites, and the Reubenites, and the Manassites, from Aroer, which is by the river Arnon, even Gilead and Bashan.

10:34 Now the rest of the acts of Jehu, and all that he did, and all his might, are they not written in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Israel?

10:35 And Jehu slept with his fathers: and they buried him in Samaria. And Jehoahaz his son reigned in his stead.

10:36 And the time that Jehu reigned over Israel in Samaria was twenty and eight years.


Jehu did good in that he destroyed Baal and their places of worship. But he failed to worship God as he departed not from the sins of Jeroboam, which made Israel to sin.

If you will notice in verse 32, and 33 God was punishing the nation of Israel for the sins they were still comitting.

In verse 34 we are told Jehu did a lot of things that are not recorded.

But the magic words in your question I am trying to answer are:

"kindness and justice"

God is kind which most people think he should always be. The general thoughts of humans is that God is supposed to love us so much He will not punish us for anything we do.

But He is a God of justice and sin can not go unpunished. His children receive all their punishment here on Earth and those who are not His children receives punishment here on Earth and in eternity.

So I don't see a problem with God being a God of love or a God of justice, as He is both.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by GDR, posted 11-29-2011 7:24 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by jar, posted 12-03-2011 2:50 PM ICANT has not yet responded
 Message 14 by GDR, posted 12-03-2011 6:41 PM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 61 of 304 (645042)
12-22-2011 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by GDR
12-03-2011 6:41 PM


Re: Confusion
Hi GDR,

GDR writes:

He is being punished for the slaughter of the people of Jezreel. Hosea is extremely clear on that.

Could you show me where the text says Jehu is being or going to be punished for anything?

from Hosea 1:

quote:
4 And the LORD said to him, "Name him Jezreel ; for yet a little while, and I will punish the house of Jehu for the bloodshed of Jezreel, and I will put an end to the kingdom of the house of Israel. 5 "On that day I will break the bow of Israel in the valley of Jezreel."

GDR writes:

We are called to be God's loving agents and as part of that we are to trust that God's perfect will be done, but on His schedule not ours.

Agreed.

But at the time Hosea is talking about God is preserving a particular people whom the messiah would come through so we could benefit from having God in a flesh body to be our sacrifice to restore us to the kind of a relationship the first man had in the Garden before he chose to disobey God's direct command.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by GDR, posted 12-03-2011 6:41 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by GDR, posted 12-22-2011 10:32 PM ICANT has not yet responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


(1)
Message 62 of 304 (645049)
12-22-2011 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by NoNukes
12-21-2011 8:49 AM


Christian
Hi NoNukes,

NoNukes writes:

For by grace are ye saved through faith.

But being saved by grace does not make you a christian.

It just makes you a born again child of the King who is unworthy of being saved by the grace of God.

I have been saved by the grace of God for 62 years and I still don't consider myself a christian.

To be a christian is to be living a life like Christ did. I don't measure up to that yet, I am still working on it and He is still working on me.

quote:
Act 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

It doesn't seem to indicate that they called themselves Christians. But that they were called Christians by the people of the world. As I understand it they were called little Cristos's. The word Christian was used by Agrippa telling Paul that he had almost presuaded him to be a Christian, and by Peter talking about suffering as a Christian.

My definition of a Christian is someone who is living a life like Christ did. He was perfect I can't be perfect yet, and I haven't met anyone in person that is perfect.

God Bless,

OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD

Edited by AdminPD, : Warning


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by NoNukes, posted 12-21-2011 8:49 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by NoNukes, posted 12-22-2011 6:23 PM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 63 of 304 (645051)
12-22-2011 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Granny Magda
12-22-2011 2:29 AM


Re: The OT is Not a Christian Document
Hi GM,

Granny Magda writes:

For example, he would have believed in Mosaic authorship, a major mistake.

Why would Paul be making a major mistake. He would be in good company with Abraham and Jesus.

Abraham was a lot closer to Moses than Paul was and he said:

quote:
Luke 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

Jesus is the one who is saying what Abraham said so He also believes Moses wrote the Torah, as He is the one that gave it to Moses.

If Jesus believed Moses wrote the Torah, that is good enough for me.

You have your privilege of believing whatever you desire too.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Granny Magda, posted 12-22-2011 2:29 AM Granny Magda has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by NoNukes, posted 12-22-2011 6:29 PM ICANT has responded
 Message 67 by NoNukes, posted 12-22-2011 6:35 PM ICANT has not yet responded
 Message 86 by Granny Magda, posted 12-24-2011 7:08 AM ICANT has not yet responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 64 of 304 (645052)
12-22-2011 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by GDR
12-22-2011 11:13 AM


Re: The OT is Not a Christian Document
Hi GDR,

GDR writes:

it would have been difficult for Moses to write the part of the Torah after he was dead.

Why would it have been difficult for Moses to write of his death.

He was fortold he was not going to enter the promised land because he had disobeyed God by smiting the rock instead of speaking to the rock as instructed.

He wrote a song the day he died and finished the book of the law according to the text.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by GDR, posted 12-22-2011 11:13 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by GDR, posted 12-22-2011 10:42 PM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 68 of 304 (645056)
12-22-2011 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by NoNukes
12-22-2011 6:29 PM


Re: The OT is Not a Christian Document
Hi NoNukes,

NoNukes writes:

This says nothing about authorship. What says that this statement isn't about the content of the scriptures rather than the authorship?

If that was the case then why didn't Jesus say Abraham said, "Law and Prophets" if He didn't mean Moses wrote it?

Do you believe Jesus knew who wrote the Torah?

God Bless,

OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD

Edited by AdminPD, : Warning


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by NoNukes, posted 12-22-2011 6:29 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by jar, posted 12-22-2011 7:33 PM ICANT has not yet responded
 Message 72 by NoNukes, posted 12-22-2011 9:29 PM ICANT has not yet responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 69 of 304 (645057)
12-22-2011 6:50 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by NoNukes
12-22-2011 6:23 PM


Re: Christian
Hi NoNukes,

NoNukes writes:

That makes no sense to me. Grace does not require worth. It is a gift from God.

That was my point.

The only thing that makes mankind worthy is the shed Blood of Jesus Christ that is applied to make them worthy.

NoNukes writes:

So no one is living a life like Christ did, and thus there are no Christians.

That sums it up pretty well.

We are supposed to be trying to live a life like Christ getting a little closer each day. He did say take up thy cross and follow me daily.

God Bless,

OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD

Edited by AdminPD, : Warning


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by NoNukes, posted 12-22-2011 6:23 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by NoNukes, posted 12-22-2011 9:34 PM ICANT has not yet responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 81 of 304 (645150)
12-23-2011 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by GDR
12-22-2011 10:42 PM


Re: The OT is Not a Christian Document
Hi GDR,

GDR writes:

He also knew where he would be buried, and that the grave site would be lost forever. For that matter why is it written in the third person?

Actually it is possible that Joshua wrote the last few verses of Deut..

The Torah and Joshua would have been kept together during the journey into the promised land.

The books were not separated until about the time the LXX was written in the second or third century BC. Stephen Langton, an Archbishop of Canterbury, introduced the chapter divisions in A.D. 1227.

Wycliff was the first to use those chapter divisions.

Robert Stephanus printed his Greek New Testament with verses in 1551.

All the others came later.

GDR writes:

However, if the Torah is literally dictated by God, why does it even matter whether or not it was penned by Moses?

In Exodus 17:14 God told Moses to write for a memorial a missive (written message).

If Moses did not write then it's a lie.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by GDR, posted 12-22-2011 10:42 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by jar, posted 12-23-2011 8:40 PM ICANT has not yet responded
 Message 83 by GDR, posted 12-23-2011 9:19 PM ICANT has not yet responded
 Message 84 by NoNukes, posted 12-23-2011 10:31 PM ICANT has not yet responded

    
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