I think that is is safe to say that the majority of modern views of morality (of whatever basis) would see it as immoral to stone somebody to death for any crime (much less picking up wood on a Sunday). What I want to know is whether it is ackowledged and agreed by DB that his Faith is in a God who orders that.
If it is, then I can come to a better understanding of Faith in the inerrancy of the Bible. And likewise, if it isn't I will still come to that better understanding.
My faith is in a God who did order that. God is perfectly righteous in all of his dealings. That doesn't mean it is right for a man to do it or order it to be done. What makes something immoral is the why of it, and God ultimately determines what is moral and immoral in any particular circumstance.
No, I don't believe in a God of situational ethics. It is moral to kill someone who is going to kill your family. It is immoral to kill someone because he ticked you off. Get it? I doubt it.
I cannot fathom how anyone can believe in both God as incarnate in Jesus and also believe in a god who would have the people he chose to bring a message of love of others to the world, to get together and stone to death difficult kids or somebody that picked up some firewood on the Sabbath.
That is because you are assuming the situation in ancient palestine is identical to the situation in calm, peaceful, modern western society. Have you ever heard of a kingdom run by God's chosen people being established here on earth? If God had intended for that to happen relatively soon when he had the Torah written, it would make perfect sense for both apparently objectionable acts. You cannot have a perfect society with a bunch of God and parent hating rebellious kids running around eventually turning into grownups. The sabbath was serious business. If you were God's special people, it was a serious affront to God to ignore the day especially carved out for him and him alone. You may not like a God who wants that kind of worship, but that is what you got.
That is hardly the situation we are talking about now is it? We are talking about slaughtering a whole community - men, women and children.
There was a very good reason for slaughtering the whole community. Why do you question God's motivations?
Not only that but you are using the people who are supposed to be bringing your message of peace and love to the world as the instruments of this slaughter and just consider what that does to them
The purpose of israel was not supposed to be bringing a message of peace and love. That is you putting your own goals as God's goals. The purpose of israel was to let the world know who the true god was. It was to put a glaring contrast between Jehovah and baal or ra or whoever they had as god's back then.
We are talking about getting a group together to stone to death someone picking up firewood on the Sabbath.
That is exactly what should have been done. The sabbath was for man and not for God. It was essential that the sabbath be strictly followed for man's own good.
How about the world that Jesus lived in? Jesus came to establish His Kingdom. But HIs Kingdom is led by serving, by mercy, by justice for all, by forgiveness etc and as His followers that is what we are called to.
I don't see any contradiction here because you do not know what the purpose of his kingdom was. There were no caananites or jebusites or baal worshipers at the time of Jesus. There was no need to annihilate a whole community of people. Israel had already lost her kingdom. It had now been taken over by the romans.
Jesus lived in a land occupied and controlled by Romans and with a puppet government of quislings. There was a rebellion when Jesus was 10 years old that would have resulted in Him seeing hundreds of crucified freedom fighters along the roadsides. In spite of that, he told his fellow Jews that they were to love the Romans, go the extra mile for the Romans and to even turn the other cheek. Now, just how do you square that with the image of the Yahweh in the passages mentioned?
I see no contradiction at all. Why do you? Slaughtering whole communites was not about inflicting revenge. Your problem is that you ascribe evil motives to the works of God in the OT where there are none.
As I’ve said, I believe in a God who is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. I worship a God that we see revealed in Jesus.
I believe the same. The only problem is that you don't have a clue what was really revealed in Jesus.
Jesus was the fulfillment of the law and the prophets. He shed a bright light on all of the Hebrew Scriptures so that we could properly understand what was of God and what wasn’t.
I agree , but you still have failed to grasp just what Jesus was teaching.
The version of Yahweh from the OT that you worship, the one who’s answer to just about everything is to have them stoned to death, and the who sometimes advocates genocide is not what we see embodied in Jesus.
The Yahweh from the OT is the exact same person as the Jesus of the NT. Modern scholarship inspired by the devil makes you think otherwise. What God did in the OT was not genocide like that of pol pot. It was the removal of evil from a land that was promised to a chosen people. Any people who had remained unkilled, would still hold on to their ancient religion and culture and lead the people of Israel astray, and that is exactly what they did. See how you missed the wisdom of God in your self righteous declarations of what he should and shouldn't do?
IMHO, misunderstanding how we are to understand the Scriptures gives you a warped view of God and in some minds a dangerous view of God.
I agree, and that is the reason you should reconsider your understanding of the scriptures.
If you are really serious about understanding the Bible literally then why don’t you get a group of like thinking friends next Sunday, and stone to death the guy running the local corner store?
Why would I? Is the guy running the local store a caananite. Am I part of israel and is israel beginning to set up her holy kingdom here on earth? No, on both counts.
As I’m sure you are serious about following the Bible literally I’m sure you have given all that you have to the poor. It goes on and on.
I do take the bible literally. Does it tell me specifically to give all my money to the poor, or was it talking to a specific individual at the time?
The Bible is not intended to be read literally and frankly it would make no sense to do so even if it was possible.
It certainly is possible to do so, and it only makes sense when you give over your wisdom to God and allow him to let you understand.
God is so much bigger than that. Jesus is so much bigger than that.
Much bigger than what? Telling us the truth? Of course he is bigger than any one thing he does. Does that mean that we should ignore everything he does because he is bigger than that? He did not give us his truth, and say: Take this however you want to take it. I don't really give a damn. Do as you wish and make up your own morality and judge things according to the wisdom of man. You don't have to seek out my wisdom.
Just more food for thought that may help the misconception that the God of the OT was different than the Jesus of the NT: It was God's plan to bring his kingdom in during the time of Jesus. If israel had accepted her king, the nations that rebelled against that kingdom would have been annihilated just like the ancient caananites. His kingdom has been postponed, but it will be brought back again and the book of revelation goes into detail on what will happen to man as a result of fighting against the estaablisment of that kingdom. It will get so bad that men will beg for the mountains to fall down upon them and crush them.
Like the rest of the bible, Jesus doesn't tell us everything that is going to happen. He did however say some ominous things. He said that not one stone would be left upon the other of the temple. Most of the temple is destroyed but the wailing wall remains. Knocking that completely down tells me that something awful would be required. Another thing he said was that woe to nursing moms in those days if it were on a sabbath, speaking about a day of reckoning.
Here is the passage in question: But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened
That tells me there will be much carnage on a particular day. It wasn't necessary in the short span of the book of matthew to include every little detail. I would assume the destruction of nations bent on israels destruction would be part of the picture Jesus is warning us about.
God was in a covenant relationship with Israel. The worship of other gods was strictly forbidden as part of that covenant. What did Moses say God would do to anyone who worshipped other gods? What did Elijah prophecy would happen to the house of Ahab for its baal worship?