Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 49 (9179 total)
1 online now:
Newest Member: Jorge Parker
Post Volume: Total: 918,223 Year: 5,480/9,624 Month: 505/323 Week: 2/143 Day: 2/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   A Problem With the Literal Interpretation of Scripture
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 197 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


(1)
Message 76 of 304 (645081)
12-23-2011 1:13 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by GDR
12-21-2011 11:02 PM


However, we keep going around in circles. I’ll try something else.
Not really its just a matter of trusting what the Lord has said. example do you really believe that jesus spoke these words and why do you believe that
Jesus gave the Sermon on the Mount to describe the give an understanding of existence in the life after the new creation and how it is that we are to build for that re-creation of all things. Here is a passage from it.
quote:
. 43"You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.'44"But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,45so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven ; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.46"For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have ? Do not even the tax collectors do the same ?47"If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same ?
Now then let’s look at just one example from the OT. From Deuteronomy 7:
quote:
1 "When the LORD your God brings you into the land where you are entering to possess it, and clears away many nations before you, the Hittites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Canaanites and the Perizzites and the Hivites and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and stronger than you, 2 and when the LORD your God delivers them before you and you defeat them, then you shall utterly destroy them. You shall make no covenant with them and show no favor to them.
Is this the same omniscient God that is the same yesterday, today and forever? The thing is, if you understand that the OT quote represents God equally with the quote from the Sermon on the Mount you wind up worshipping and serving a very different God that if you understand Jesus as embodying the Word of God and use that as a filter in understanding the OT.
The fundamentalist reading of the Scriptures that views the Deuteronomy reading as accurately depicting the heart of God has a very different take on things than someone who understands God as represented by Jesus. In a discussion that I had with Iano he wrote this:
quote:
As for nuking non-Christian nations? If God directed it I'd see no problem with it. Doubtlessly he'd have a multitude of goals in so doing. I don't think I'd want to take it on myself however (unless of course, he gave an unmistakable direction).
Please give a valid argument as to why oneof these stories is true the other is not. Please explain why you know that the scribe that wrote the passage was not inspired by God and the author of the gospel passage was. heck, for that matter just explain why either one is real
That is the type of thinking that you get when we understand the OT as literally true. I won’t quote them but look at the posts by the fundamentalists in the Hitch is Dead thread. I just can’t understand this kind of thinking by people who call themselves Christian. Frankly I find these posts by people who are supposedly of the same faith as me chilling. I can see no way of squaring any of those posts with the Sermon on the Mount, but if the OT is understood literally then I suppose it makes sense if the NT is only paid lip service.
Mine was a clinical observation about him. Notice I did not say that I was not those things, only that he was. The scriptures say we are all like dirty rags before the Lord, some are a bit filthier.
But you are placing your faith in your ability to decide what is acceptable or not when YOU MAKE THE DECISION that you will try to understand the Scriptures in a literal manner. I would add that I can’t quite understand how you actually can come to conclusions with the conflicting images of God that we find in those two quotes.
I have offered you a valid, logical and scriptural answer to that query. I have suggested (with no answer from you)that if two people believe the Bible to be Gods word, it would follow that Gods infinite wisdom should be observed and worshiped before some decision we read about in scripture. My friend that is as simple and logical as it gets.
Ironically, while going to the store the other day, I passed a church billboard sign, where I use to attend. It said
"FAITH IS TAKING GOD AT HIS WORD". I thought wow, how can it get any simpler than that?
On the way back from the store, the opposite side said, to my further satisfaction
FEED YOUR FAITH, STARVE YOUR DOUBT
Of course the only way to feed your faith is through his word, which we should take at face value, even GDR, if we have doubts
Once again you are dismissing the manner that I contend the Scriptures are to be understood and assuming that there is no questioning of your position.
GDR, your not questioning my position or my words, but the words of God, as you have agreed they are. Im only telling you what the words say and you can see THEM FOR yourself. Your the one doing the questioning of his word. Think about it
You simply dismiss contradictions and moral ambiguities out of hand by just saying that I, and presumably you as well, don’t understand for one reason or another.
No, you still misunderstand. Pay close attention to this reasoning. Its not that you or I can or cannot identify a contradiction. its that if the writer had a axe to grind, if the scribe was not inspired, if the scribe was lying, if the morals in the old dont square with the new, then we have no way to know anything or trust anything
If you think we do, please provide that in some rational form, other than, "Thats what I believe"
And I dont dismiss moral ambiguites, its that, if God did not actually do that and the scripture clearly says God told him to, then how can i believe anything else
Here is contrasting example in scripture about Gods justice.
In one instance we have a man (my favorite character in the OT) Abraham, that challenged the wisdom of God. "Shall not the judge of all the earth do that which is right" "If there be 5 righteous will you spare it" God: "I will spare it"
Now here is the point GDR. Didnt God already know? Of course he did. But he had to let Abraham trust that he knew what he was doing. He still destroyed the cites of the plains. Now I believe that is a true story, is ther any reason why i shouldnt. jesus even believed it was a true story, he referenced it
Didnt God answer his question about Gods wisdom? Didnt the judge of all the earth do the right thing, even if it says he destroyed those cities.
Would it have been any different if he had Abraham blind the people of the city verses an angel, or Joshua? Did the judge of all the earth do the right thing
Do you believe yourself this story is ture and actual?
In Ninevah however, he exercised his infinite wisdom again by Showing Jonah that he knew the people would repent, even though Jonah, thought they wouldnt. Infinite Love, Mercy and Justice
Also there were no doubt little children in those cities. While it doesnt seem reasonable to me, I have to trust his wisdom
"The fear of the Lord, is the beginning of wisdom" Psalms. Fear here of course means, respect and trust. So what is the opposite of not trusting the Lords judgements
From mans perspective, they were required to obey and keep the Sabbath
From Gods perspective, he said, "That you may know that the Son of man is Lord, even of the sabbath
I’ll give you that quote from Paul again form 1 Cor 4.
quote:
4 My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me.5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.
God will judge the motives of men’s hearts. It is not about whether or not we got our theology right. Read from Mathew 7:
quote:
21"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.22"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles ?'23"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
And what is God’s will? We are called to humbly love kindness and do justice. We are told to love God and neighbour and we are told to love our enemy.
As Christians we have been given the vocation of proclaiming that Christ is King and to enact that message by serving His creation. Yes if we truly believe then we are pre-judged but just what does it mean by to believe. It does not mean giving intellectual ascent to the divinity of Christ. It is about actually making Him Lord, taking on board that to rule means to serve, (remember the washing of the disciple’s feet?) and finding our joy in the love that we show and feel for others, and for that matter all of His creation.
I know, and every word you write and scripture you quote (as the ones above) is an allegation against me
someone, maybe even CS lewis said, "The hardest of jesus' commands to obey are the simplest to understand." Love your enemies. easy to understand hard to do
Your clearly worng about how to approach and understand WHAT Gods word is or is not, but you seem to have hit the target on its heart, even if you cant demonstrate the writer was actual, real or believable
In the same vein and keeping with the topic, let me ask you a question. Do you believe the miracles in the Bible are to be understood as real and actual?
Im not asking if they can be understood in a allegorical sense, Im asking you if you believe they are real and actually happended
I can’t find that quote of Paul. Can you tell me where it comes from?
2 Thesselonians chapter 1
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by GDR, posted 12-21-2011 11:02 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-23-2011 11:05 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied
 Message 80 by GDR, posted 12-23-2011 3:16 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 197 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


(1)
Message 77 of 304 (645105)
12-23-2011 8:26 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by NoNukes
12-21-2011 8:49 AM


In fact, you are saying exactly that. Questioning someone's faith IS questioning whether they are a Christian. For by grace are ye saved through faith. You are saying in essence, that GDR is not a true Scotsman.
Get real, No nuclear weapons, that is not even close to what I am saying or arguing. He is saved or not saved by the blood of Christ. What his beliefs are after that fact has nothing to do with that established fact
Christ often claimed that the Apostles had little faith, "Oh yeah of little faith", but he never characterized them as not saved or Gods children
If you are going to represent someone, try and do it with some intelligence, objectivity and all the facts
Nonukes writes
I understand that, and your implication is nonsense. Nothing that he has said implies any lack of belief in God's omniscience. What you have done here is conflate God's omniscience with your own interpretation of the Bible as having been dictated by God.
The Bible says
1 John 3:19-20 [19] This then is how we know that we belong to the truth, and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence [20] whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.
Job 37:16 Do you know how the clouds hang poised, those wonders of him who is perfect in knowledge?
Psalms 147:5 Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit.
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by NoNukes, posted 12-21-2011 8:49 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by NoNukes, posted 12-23-2011 10:54 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 78 of 304 (645113)
12-23-2011 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Dawn Bertot
12-23-2011 8:26 AM


Get real, No nuclear weapons, that is not even close to what I am saying or arguing. He is saved or not saved by the blood of Christ. What his beliefs are after that fact has nothing to do with that established fact
You can gloss over what you said. But the fact remains that you claimed that his faith was found wanting based only on his not reading the Bible as you do.
If you are going to represent someone, try and do it with some intelligence, objectivity and all the facts
We're done here. I have to admit that I knew better than to engage you in a discussion, but did so anyway.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-23-2011 8:26 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 399 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 79 of 304 (645114)
12-23-2011 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Dawn Bertot
12-23-2011 1:13 AM


ronically, while going to the store the other day, I passed a church billboard sign, where I use to attend. It said
"FAITH IS TAKING GOD AT HIS WORD". I thought wow, how can it get any simpler than that?
On the way back from the store, the opposite side said, to my further satisfaction
FEED YOUR FAITH, STARVE YOUR DOUBT
Jesus writes:
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-23-2011 1:13 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


(1)
Message 80 of 304 (645135)
12-23-2011 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Dawn Bertot
12-23-2011 1:13 AM


Dawn Bertot writes:
Not really its just a matter of trusting what the Lord has said. example do you really believe that jesus spoke these words and why do you believe that
I believe it as a matter of faith. It is simple as that. However, having said that I suggest that there is good reason to believe it. IMHO there is no other world view that makes as much sense of the world from a moral, scientific or practical aspect as does Christianity.
Let’s look at this passage from Matthew 15.
quote:
8'THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.9 'BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.' "
Frankly, I contend that what you regard as doctrine is actually the precept of man. There is no reason to understand the scriptures in the way that you do. The message is consistent through all of the Gospels. What God wants is our hearts.
Here is how Jesus starts the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5.
quote:
1When Jesus saw the crowds, He went up on the mountain ; and after He sat down, His disciples came to Him. 2He opened His mouth and began to teach them, saying, 3"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.4"Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.5"Blessed are the gentle, for they shall inherit the earth.6"Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.7"Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.8"Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.9"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.10"Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.11"Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me.12"Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great ; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
That passage tells us what it looks like when we give our hearts to God. It says nothing about doctrine. It is about our hearts. What makes us right with God is that we have hearts that love. Hearts that love others as we would like to be loved. Hearts that love all that God has created for us. Hearts that love truth, mercy, justice, kindness, forgiveness etc. Hearts that find joy in the joy of others. Jesus came for all mankind not just those who get their doctrine right. This does not mean that there won’t be those who consciously reject unselfish love, and cling to the love of self, but that will be there choice.
One of the big problems with your theology IMHO, is that you confuse vocation with salvation. Our vocation as Christians is to preach the good news that Jesus the Servant King reigns. We are to preach Christ crucified and resurrected by the Father. We are to preach that at the end of time there will be perfect justice done for a re-created heaven and earth in one. We are to preach that all loving acts have purpose in building for that re-created world and that it all has ultimate meaning and purpose.
Salvation is about hearts. Jesus says this is Matthew 9. (The same message is repeated in Mark and Luke.
quote:
"But go and learn what this means : 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
Salvation as we see in Matthew 25 is about hearts that feed the hungry, visit the prisoners, clothe the naked, house the homeless etc without understanding that it was Jesus they were doing this for. It is about hearts that automatically go to the loving choice.
Christians who have truly given their heart to God and not just their intellect have the Holy Spirit to guide them down this path of truth and righteousness.
We are also told that it is God that will judge human hearts and that isn’t our business.
Dawn Bertot writes:
Please give a valid argument as to why oneof these stories is true the other is not. Please explain why you know that the scribe that wrote the passage was not inspired by God and the author of the gospel passage was. heck, for that matter just explain why either one is real
Once again, it isn’t about knowing. It is faith. As I said in the first part of this post, the Gospel message is that what God wants of us is that we have hearts that love. In the passage that quoted Jesus we can clearly see that if we follow through on what Jesus our hearts can be softened. In the OT passage I quoted it is easy to see that by slaughtering men, women and children by hand the hearts of those that commit the atrocity will be hardened. In addition to that it was the Jews who were given the message of loving thy neighbour and were supposed to take that message to the world. Committing genocide is a little tough on the witness wouldn’t you say. It isn’t difficult to discern the truth that God wants us to receive.
Dawn Bertot writes:
I have offered you a valid, logical and scriptural answer to that query. I have suggested (with no answer from you)that if two people believe the Bible to be Gods word, it would follow that Gods infinite wisdom should be observed and worshiped before some decision we read about in scripture. My friend that is as simple and logical as it gets.
Ironically, while going to the store the other day, I passed a church billboard sign, where I use to attend. It said
"FAITH IS TAKING GOD AT HIS WORD". I thought wow, how can it get any simpler than that?
On the way back from the store, the opposite side said, to my further satisfaction
FEED YOUR FAITH, STARVE YOUR DOUBT
Of course the only way to feed your faith is through his word, which we should take at face value, even GDR, if we have doubts
The scripture that you say is to be read literally says that Jesus is the Word (Logos) of God. The Bible is a collection of writings that contain the word of God. We keep going round and round on that. Taking it at face value does not mean that it has to be taken literally.
GDR writes:
But you are placing your faith in your ability to decide what is acceptable or not when YOU MAKE THE DECISION that you will try to understand the Scriptures in a literal manner. I would add that I can’t quite understand how you actually can come to conclusions with the conflicting images of God that we find in those two quotes.
Dawn Bertot writes:
I have offered you a valid, logical and scriptural answer to that query. I have suggested (with no answer from you)that if two people believe the Bible to be Gods word, it would follow that Gods infinite wisdom should be observed and worshiped before some decision we read about in scripture. My friend that is as simple and logical as it gets.
That is as about as illogical as you can get. You come to a conclusion based on nothing but the tradition of the specific church or domination that you belong to and dogmatically keep repeating that it is the Word of God with your own definition of how that is to be understood. You do this while accepting that there are obvious contradictions in the texts. God has gifted us with reason and it seems like you think that we should throw that gift back in His face.
Dawn Bertot writes:
Of course the only way to feed your faith is through his word, which we should take at face value, even GDR, if we have doubts
That’s odd. What about prayer? What about the Holy Spirit? What about as Paul says through His creation? How about from listening to others? How about through the writings of others? It seems that you have decided that there is only way to feed your faith and IMHO you have chosen a misguided way of doing it.
Yes the Holy Spirit of God can touch our minds and hearts through the Scriptures, that is why we have them, but the Scriptures are a tool used by God, the Scriptures are not God.
Edited by GDR, : typo

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-23-2011 1:13 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-24-2011 1:38 PM GDR has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 142 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


(1)
Message 81 of 304 (645150)
12-23-2011 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by GDR
12-22-2011 10:42 PM


Re: The OT is Not a Christian Document
Hi GDR,
GDR writes:
He also knew where he would be buried, and that the grave site would be lost forever. For that matter why is it written in the third person?
Actually it is possible that Joshua wrote the last few verses of Deut..
The Torah and Joshua would have been kept together during the journey into the promised land.
The books were not separated until about the time the LXX was written in the second or third century BC. Stephen Langton, an Archbishop of Canterbury, introduced the chapter divisions in A.D. 1227.
Wycliff was the first to use those chapter divisions.
Robert Stephanus printed his Greek New Testament with verses in 1551.
All the others came later.
GDR writes:
However, if the Torah is literally dictated by God, why does it even matter whether or not it was penned by Moses?
In Exodus 17:14 God told Moses to write for a memorial a missive (written message).
If Moses did not write then it's a lie.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by GDR, posted 12-22-2011 10:42 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by jar, posted 12-23-2011 8:40 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 83 by GDR, posted 12-23-2011 9:19 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 84 by NoNukes, posted 12-23-2011 10:31 PM ICANT has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 82 of 304 (645153)
12-23-2011 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by ICANT
12-23-2011 8:15 PM


Re: The OT is Not a Christian Document
ICANT writes:
In Exodus 17:14 God told Moses to write for a memorial a missive (written message).
If Moses did not write then it's a lie.
HUH?
Why would it be a lie?
Is "Study in Scarlet" 'Being a reprint from the Reminiscences of John H. Watson, M.D., Late of the Army Medical Department a lie'?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by ICANT, posted 12-23-2011 8:15 PM ICANT has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 83 of 304 (645156)
12-23-2011 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by ICANT
12-23-2011 8:15 PM


Re: The OT is Not a Christian Document
ICANT writes:
In Exodus 17:14 God told Moses to write for a memorial a missive (written message).
If Moses did not write then it's a lie.
How do you know that even if Moses did write a memorial, that what we read in the OT is what Moses wrote.
Edited by GDR, : gotta proof read more

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by ICANT, posted 12-23-2011 8:15 PM ICANT has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 84 of 304 (645165)
12-23-2011 10:31 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by ICANT
12-23-2011 8:15 PM


Re: The OT is Not a Christian Document
Actually it is possible that Joshua wrote the last few verses of Deut..
Joshua, but no one else?
In Exodus 17:14 God told Moses to write for a memorial a missive (written message).
If Moses did not write then it's a lie.
That last proposition does not follow from the others. Perhaps Moses wrote the memorial, but the memorial does not form part of the Torah. Perhaps what Moses wrote does form part of the Torah because it was used as a reference by whoever did write the Torah. Maybe Moses did not do as instructed.
Let's take a look at the text of Exodus 17:14 and see what Moses was supposed to write.
quote:
14 And the LORD said unto Moses, Write this for a memorial in a book, and rehearse it in the ears of Joshua: for I will utterly put out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven
Looks like Moses was supposed to write about the victory over Amalek for Joshua's benefit. Well, there are a few verses in Exodus 17 about the battle, but we don't know if those verses or any other ones are the account that God instructed Moses to write.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by ICANT, posted 12-23-2011 8:15 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Granny Magda
Member (Idle past 152 days)
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


Message 85 of 304 (645193)
12-24-2011 6:59 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by GDR
12-22-2011 11:13 AM


Re: The OT is Not a Christian Document
I'm not so sure about Paul subscribing to Mosaic authorship. Anyone who knew the scriptures as well as Paul would know that it would have been difficult for Moses to write the part of the Torah after he was dead.
It seems to me that you are willing to be more generous toward Paul than you would be toward a source that wasn't so important to Christianity.
Mosaic Authorship was the standard model in the First Century. If you want to suggest that he held to any other model, you are going out on a limb; you need evidence for that, or you should assume that the default position applies. The default position in this case is Mosaic Authorship, because that's what people believed back then.
As for the bit about Moses' death, I expect that people back then used the same poor excuse as ICANT does today, that "Joshua wrote the last few verses".
I agree that he would have no idea about the "Documentary Hypothesis" but some parts of the Torah are obviously from different sources so I think he might well have had a smattering of an understanding of it.
I doubt it. Be honest, Paul's understanding of the Torah would have been dwarfed by any modern scholar. He was writing thousands of years after it was written, only without the benefit of modern knowledge and techniques. He was not any closer to the authors in any meaningful sense. His opinion is just another semi-informed opinion, no more valuable than any other opinion.
He would at least have knowledge of the way that it was understood by his contemporaries and of course just how that played into Christ's understanding of the Hebrew Scriptures.
That is true, but it doesn't mean that Paul's contemporaneous view of the scriptures was actually the correct one. He could still have got it very wrong, as indeed Jesus could have misunderstood the scriptures.
Yes and no IMHO. I believe that Jesus' self understanding of who He was as Messiah, and the vocation that flowed from that, was solidly based on the Hebrew Scriptures, particularly Isaiah, Daniel and the Psalms.
Well this is definitely a whole separate topic, but from what I've seen, the OT material about the Messiah does not resemble Jesus very much. If that's your test, I think that Jesus fails it.
The OT is written by men with their personal and cultural biases but within all of that I firmly believe that there is the true revelation of God.
Well, as I've said before, I consider this to be a rather counter-productive way of revealing something.
Mutate and Survive

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by GDR, posted 12-22-2011 11:13 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by GDR, posted 12-24-2011 1:06 PM Granny Magda has seen this message but not replied

  
Granny Magda
Member (Idle past 152 days)
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


Message 86 of 304 (645194)
12-24-2011 7:08 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by ICANT
12-22-2011 5:45 PM


Re: The OT is Not a Christian Document
Why would Paul be making a major mistake.
Because Moses didn't write the Torah. You are several centuries behind the times on this one ICANT. Please try to at least drag yourself into the Nineteenth Century.
He would be in good company with Abraham and Jesus.
At least one of whom is likely a fictional character.
Abraham was a lot closer to Moses than Paul was and he said: {quotes Luke 16:29}
Luke was written after Paul, numbnuts.
Jesus is the one who is saying what Abraham said...
No. The author of Luke is saying that Jesus said that Abraham said...
Mutate and Survive

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by ICANT, posted 12-22-2011 5:45 PM ICANT has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


(1)
Message 87 of 304 (645222)
12-24-2011 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Granny Magda
12-24-2011 6:59 AM


Re: The OT is Not a Christian Document
Granny Magda writes:
It seems to me that you are willing to be more generous toward Paul than you would be toward a source that wasn't so important to Christianity.
Mosaic Authorship was the standard model in the First Century. If you want to suggest that he held to any other model, you are going out on a limb; you need evidence for that, or you should assume that the default position applies. The default position in this case is Mosaic Authorship, because that's what people believed back then.
Josephus did seem to think that Moses was the author. I still wonder though. I know today we just automatically say the Matthew wrote the Gospel making it sound like we are assuming it’s a foregone conclusion that he wrote it, which is actually unlikely.
Granny Magda writes:
I doubt it. Be honest, Paul's understanding of the Torah would have been dwarfed by any modern scholar. He was writing thousands of years after it was written, only without the benefit of modern knowledge and techniques. He was not any closer to the authors in any meaningful sense. His opinion is just another semi-informed opinion, no more valuable than any other opinion.
That's probably true but he would have a better understanding of how his contemporaries understood the Hebrew Scriptures which is what is probably more to the point.
Granny Magda writes:
Well this is definitely a whole separate topic, but from what I've seen, the OT material about the Messiah does not resemble Jesus very much. If that's your test, I think that Jesus fails it.
There is the suffering servant in Isaiah and the somewhat more cryptic talk of the "Son of Man" in Daniel but that would not have been the understanding of the vast majority if any of Jesus' Jewish contemporaries.
Granny Magda writes:
Well, as I've said before, I consider this to be a rather counter-productive way of revealing something.
God for whatever reasons seems to have chosen to work through humans and as a result the message does seem to get muddied. As a Christian I would say that even when He chose to connect with us more directly He did it through the man Jesus.
Merry Christmas

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Granny Magda, posted 12-24-2011 6:59 AM Granny Magda has seen this message but not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 197 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


(1)
Message 88 of 304 (645225)
12-24-2011 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by GDR
12-23-2011 3:16 PM


It is simple as that. However, having said that I suggest that there is good reason to believe it.
Again with respect, you simply do not understand. Before you believe anything it is and becomes a simple logical proposition
If we claim that it is from God, insist that we cant really distinguish between which writers were accurate and factual, insist that thier are contradictions and cant distinguish between which facts are accurate, then nothing else is verifiable, not even the reusurrection
A good reason to believe something, with this kind of rational becomes non-sensical and idiotic. Again with respect to you as a person, I am addressing you position, not you
Its not that choosing a literal approach feels better, its that it makes no LOGICAL sense to begin with
Frankly, I contend that what you regard as doctrine is actually the precept of man. There is no reason to understand the scriptures in the way that you do.
As I have just demonstrated with my usual force of reason, you above statment is not the case
To disregard Gods infinite power and suggest that he would leave us with some type of guessing game makes no logical sense. To suggest that we ourselves could work out and decide what should be accepted in the parameters of what we consider is his word, makes no sense
of the big problems with your theology IMHO, is that you confuse vocation with salvation. Our vocation as Christians is to preach the good news that Jesus the Servant King reigns. We are to preach Christ crucified and resurrected by the Father. We are to preach that at the end of time there will be perfect justice done for a re-created heaven and earth in one. We are to preach that all loving acts have purpose in building for that re-created world and that it all has ultimate meaning and purpose.
Unfortunately you are picking and choosing again. You are leaving out Gods infinite wisdom and mercy to make such decisions as those described in the OT
Again I dont mean to suggest that I have a perfect faith, only that we seem to need to work on different aspects of it. But the point is that you cant take one part and leave off another
Christians who have truly given their heart to God and not just their intellect have the Holy Spirit to guide them down this path of truth and righteousness.
We are also told that it is God that will judge human hearts and that isn’t our business.
While this is true and every good reason to believe that I need to work on this aspect more than yourself, it does not change the fact that you position on this matter, is illogical, irrational and unscriptural, considering the amount of information we have concerning, the nature of God, the direction and purposes of God, the inspiration of God, as described in his word
I am truely enjoying our discussion, see you after Christmas, which by the way, for all the non-believers and liberals out there, is About Christ (not holidays)and his life and death and reusrrection
Dont let the liberals win, keep Christ in Christmas, dont let the liberals have an inch. Stop the mouth of the gainsayers
Titus 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by GDR, posted 12-23-2011 3:16 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by GDR, posted 12-24-2011 5:33 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


(1)
Message 89 of 304 (645249)
12-24-2011 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Dawn Bertot
12-24-2011 1:38 PM


Dawn Bertot writes:
Again with respect, you simply do not understand. Before you believe anything it is and becomes a simple logical proposition
And you are saying that it is a simple logical proposition that we are to take a book written by multiple authors, from multiple sources, translated from the original languages, with numerous inconsistencies, depicting a god that is loving and forgiving but at the same time genocidal, and for no discernible reason believe that it is word for word literally from God.
We obviously have a different view of what a logical proposition is.
Dawn Bertot writes:
If we claim that it is from God, insist that we cant really distinguish between which writers were accurate and factual, insist that thier are contradictions and cant distinguish between which facts are accurate, then nothing else is verifiable, not even the reusurrection
The Bible exists and we decide as a matter of faith what we are to make of it. You and I have come to different conclusions about what we believe by faith. Neither of us know anything.
Dawn Bertot writes:
Its not that choosing a literal approach feels better, its that it makes no LOGICAL sense to begin with
Well we agree but I don't think what you wrote is what you meant.
Dawn Bertot writes:
As I have just demonstrated with my usual force of reason, you above statment is not the case
Well I have to say Dawn that brought a smile to my face,
Dawn Bertot writes:
To disregard Gods infinite power and suggest that he would leave us with some type of guessing game makes no logical sense. To suggest that we ourselves could work out and decide what should be accepted in the parameters of what we consider is his word, makes no sense
It isn't a guessing game. It's faith and God given reason. If there was certainty we wouldn't be having this discussion.
Dawn Bertot writes:
Unfortunately you are picking and choosing again. You are leaving out Gods infinite wisdom and mercy to make such decisions as those described in the OT
Again I dont mean to suggest that I have a perfect faith, only that we seem to need to work on different aspects of it. But the point is that you cant take one part and leave off another
You for no logical reason have decided to understand the Bible in the manner that you do. I am trusting that an infinitely wise and merciful God would not countenance let alone encourage some of the despicable aspects in the OT.
IMHO your method of understanding the Bible even runs contrary to the scriptures. Here is a quote from Mark 10 which is consistent with Matthew.
quote:
1Getting up, He went from there to the region of Judea and beyond the Jordan ; crowds gathered around Him again, and, according to His custom, He once more began to teach them. 2 Some Pharisees came up to Jesus, testing Him, and began to question Him whether it was lawful for a man to divorce a wife. 3 And He answered and said to them, "What did Moses command you?"4 They said, "Moses permitted a man TO WRITE A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE AND SEND her AWAY." 5 But Jesus said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart he wrote you this commandment.6"But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE.7"FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER,8AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH ; so they are no longer two, but one flesh.9"What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate."10 In the house the disciples began questioning Him about this again. 11 And He said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her;12and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery."
Here we have Jesus correcting what was in the OT. Jesus didn't say that God allowed divorce but it was Moses that did because of the "hardness of their hearts". Jesus corrected the OT scriptures, so that it accurately reflected that which is from God. God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.
Read through The Sermon on the Mount and look at all the corrections to the OT that Jesus made. The OT talks about and eye for an eye but Jesus says no, and talks about forgiveness and turning the other cheek.
Dawn your method of understanding the Bible is not scriptural, is not logical and presents a confusing and false image of God. I really don't know what else I can say but have a very Merry Christmas.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-24-2011 1:38 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-24-2011 7:23 PM GDR has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 197 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 90 of 304 (645255)
12-24-2011 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by GDR
12-24-2011 5:33 PM


I really don't know what else I can say but have a very Merry Christmas.
How about what you havent provided, a method of rational evaluation that allows us to distinguish between that which is to be believe from God and that which is to be rejected.
GDR, your faith that jesus was true and the others were not, is not enough to establish your postion as rational, it has to be rational to begin with.
The literal approach is atleast rational, and is consistent with what the scripture has to say overall, especially with what it has to say concerning Gods characteistics and nature
In your approach, you have God as a finite, limited, confusing, lying, immoral monster. Now I know you dont believe or practice that, but that is the conclusions of your position
If not, how do we decide that which is to be as accepted. Should we do this on GDRs conclusions and estimations alone? What is someone disagrees with your approach to the resurrection. Can he still be saved beliving the story is to be believed only as a mythical story?
When you are preaching to him concerning the reusrrection and he simply cannot believe that it was real, is he GOOD TO GO? What evidence will you provide him that that Jesus was real and had authority to correct things in the OT. BTW, Jesus was not correcting the OT, but thier misguided perception of it. God did atually provide a bill of divorcement, but then God has always been merciful
Here is the proof from the NT,as you you believe it to be the truth
"At the times of this ignorance God let pass, but now commands that all men everywhere repent and come to a knowledge of the truth" Acts
If however we dont know or cannot distinguish what the truth is or is not, then it is impossible to come to the knowledge of anything
So you see the Old and the New do agree and thier is the explanation from the NT, about the Old
Yes God si the same yesterday, etc, but as Heb 1 points out he does things different thing in different ways, fo r the purpose of his people
BTW, what authority did jesus have to correct anybody about anything. Both Moses and Jesus claim to be from God. Who is telling the truth and why?
Bertot writes
Its not that choosing a literal approach feels better, its that it makes no LOGICAL sense to begin with
GDR writes
Well we agree but I don't think what you wrote is what you meant.
Yes you know what I meant
here is the point GDR. In your OP you made an assertion and an allegation. You now need a way to sustain that assertion.
My purpose is not to put you on the spot or hot seat as it were, just to let you know if you make assetions or allegations, you need to be able to defend them in some logical rational fashion
If you choose not answer this question that is fine. Again,do you believe the miracles as described in the Bible are and were real?
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by GDR, posted 12-24-2011 5:33 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by GDR, posted 12-24-2011 9:22 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024