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Author Topic:   What bothers me about the evolution of Man
Panda
Member (Idle past 2607 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 6 of 142 (642861)
12-02-2011 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by frako
12-02-2011 7:48 AM


frako writes:

how was such a over boost helpful to a society that used speers and farmed and gathered for food. Why did brains that can understand the basic laws that govern our universe evolve in a society whose basic needs where food sleep and procreate. And their basic understandings where fire hot, speer pointy mammoth food.


Meeting basic needs is the minimum requirement.
Without meeting basic needs you get extinction.

But our brains have allowed us to progress a lot further than simply meeting our basic needs.
Technology (created with our brains) makes us far less susceptible to the vagaries of our environment.
This has, in turn, allowed us to produce more off-spring who survive longer and produce more off-spring and survive longer and... etc.

Brains aren't the only way to increase reproduction and survival, but they are the way that we are currently using.

Edited by Panda, : No reason given.


If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by frako, posted 12-02-2011 7:48 AM frako has not yet responded

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 2607 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 40 of 142 (643115)
12-05-2011 5:50 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Chuck77
12-05-2011 5:14 AM


Chuck77 writes:

Since you "for sure know" it wasn't created at one moment in time then show us how it was.


It's called the Theory of Evolution.
Perhaps you have heard of it - even if you have never bothered learning about it?

The evolution of man has been quite thoroughly researched.

Do you have some evidence to show that our minds were instantly created?
Do you think that your own mind was poofed into existence?


If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Chuck77, posted 12-05-2011 5:14 AM Chuck77 has not yet responded

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 2607 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 47 of 142 (643170)
12-05-2011 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Tangle
12-05-2011 1:27 PM


Tangle writes:

There are no other examples of real intelligence in the animal kingdom...

This is only true if you redefine 'intelligence' to exclude the intelligent animals that surround us.
You could maybe argue that mankind is the most intelligent - but it would be wrong to claim that there are no other intelligent animals.

If we claim to be 10 (on a 1-10 scale of intelligence) then that is simply because someone has to be.
But that ignores all of the 9.9's, 9.8's.

Intelligence is used by every living creature.
Just some animals have more than others.

Edited by Panda, : No reason given.


If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Tangle, posted 12-05-2011 1:27 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Tangle, posted 12-05-2011 2:24 PM Panda has responded
 Message 50 by Rahvin, posted 12-05-2011 2:58 PM Panda has responded

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 2607 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 61 of 142 (643244)
12-05-2011 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Tangle
12-05-2011 2:24 PM


Tangle writes:

And until you can find an example of a species using any form of technolgy cleverer than a pointy stick and/or language higher than a few grunts, shreaks and pings, i'd say nothing even approaches the scale.

There are many many animals whose language is 'higher' that a few grunts.

This leaves you with an overly simplistic idea that technology is the sole identifier of intelligence.

But I doubt if you want technology to be a measurement of intelligence - unless you want to claim that these people are less intelligent...


If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Tangle, posted 12-05-2011 2:24 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by frako, posted 12-05-2011 6:11 PM Panda has responded
 Message 66 by Tangle, posted 12-06-2011 3:42 AM Panda has responded

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 2607 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 63 of 142 (643258)
12-05-2011 7:07 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Rahvin
12-05-2011 2:58 PM


Rahvin writes:

You vastly underestimate the difference in intelligence shown between humans and other species.

True.
But my main objection is to the claim that ("real") intelligence has not developed elsewhere in nature.

(Sorry to skip so much of your post, but I am mainly in agreement with what you wrote.)


If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Rahvin, posted 12-05-2011 2:58 PM Rahvin has not yet responded

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 2607 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 64 of 142 (643259)
12-05-2011 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by frako
12-05-2011 6:11 PM


frako writes:

as to why they dont have sophisticated technology cmmon who wants to build a castle in that heat, who wants to be locked in a room in that heat and ponder and experiment on electricity cmmon be real in that heat all you want to do is lay in the shade

What you can't see in that photo is that they are actually queuing for a cocktail bar...

If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by frako, posted 12-05-2011 6:11 PM frako has not yet responded

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 2607 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 75 of 142 (643325)
12-06-2011 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by Tangle
12-06-2011 3:42 AM


Tangle writes:

The guys in your picture use technology extensively, from their manufacture of weapons, cooking equipment, clothing, jewellry, housing, agrictulture, music etc. They have advanced language and communications, a theory of mind, can plan ahead, imagine their own deaths and work in groups.

But their technology is so far behind ours (in the developed world) that their intelligence must be equally as far behind ours.
So, by your definition, they are considerably less intelligent than us in the west.

Many Amazonian tribes use tools that are little more than pointed sticks, so do you think that their intelligence is on a par with chimpanzees?
Shall we put them in a zoo?

You need to abandon technology as a measure of intelligence. Lack of technology does not indicate lack of intelligence.
Plato lacked most of our technology, but I am sure you would not think him any less intelligent than us.

Tangle writes:

You can't name a single species that comes even close to their level of intelligence. Prove me wrong.

Well, since that is not what I was arguing for, I see no reason to.
Your claim that "Real" intelligence has not occurred elsewhere in nature is false. Changing it to "Close to human intelligence" does not make it true.

Anywho...
Us being the most intelligent species only makes other animals less intelligent. But they are not non-intelligent.
Real intelligence has evolved throughout nature.


If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Tangle, posted 12-06-2011 3:42 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 2607 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 82 of 142 (643364)
12-06-2011 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Tangle
12-06-2011 11:41 AM


Please focus.
You were replying to 2 different people in one post.

Tangle writes:

My claim is that our kind of conscious intelligence has only evolved once.

What is 'our kind of conscious intelligence'?
How does it differ to other animals?
(Surely you don't simply mean magnitude?!)

Tangle writes:

I am not claiming that other animals don't display some degree of intelligence

But that is what you were claiming.

Tangle writes:

they obviously do.

Retraction accepted.
Real intelligence has evolved in many many animals.

Tangle writes:

But it's equally obvious that their intelligence is not of the same order as ours. Not even close.

Which has no bearing on the evolution of intelligence in other animals.
We are at the top of the intelligence ladder.
That does not mean that there is no other creature on ladder with us.

Real intelligence has evolved in nature countless times.


If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Tangle, posted 12-06-2011 11:41 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Tangle, posted 12-06-2011 1:22 PM Panda has responded

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 2607 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 89 of 142 (643426)
12-06-2011 8:00 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Tangle
12-06-2011 1:22 PM


Tangle writes:

So I'll ask for one final time to give me a single example, using any kind of mainstream definition that you like, of another species, living or dead, that even approximates to our own level of intelligence and consciousness. Even a very distant miss would do.

Neanderthals and gorillas.
But I'll leave this aspect of the discussion to Catholic Scientist, as he is doing a good job of showing how meaningless your argument is.

Tangle writes:

if it helps you at all in guaging the level of attainment you need to demonstrate in your dolphin, elephant, jay or chimp, I'm writing this with an iPad from the other side of the world to a machine I've never seen, by radio. So yes, technology is one method of establishing the intelligence of a species

This would mean that since Aristotle never used an iPad he is therefore less intelligent than you.
I think not.

You really need to address the rebuttals I make rather than just repeating yourself.
Currently you think that African tribes, Plato and Aristotle are all less intelligent than you - which is clearly not true.
Shall we add Newton to that list? I am certain he never even had a TV.

Tangle writes:

I do think that magnitude is a major differentiator

I never said it wasn't.
I have never claimed that we don't have a different level of intelligence.
In fact, if you had bothered to read my last post, you would see that I agree that we are the most intelligent.

Tangle writes:

and yes I do think consciousness is also vital

Are you saying that animals have no consciousness? Really?
The ability to experience or to feel? I know animals can do that.
I expect that you can't actually identify any aspect of consciousness that humans have but animals lack.

Tangle writes:

and no I've never claimed that 'intelligence' itself, no matteer how lowly, is unique to us, that was a straw man.

Then I wonder why you are still disagreeing when I say that "Real intelligence has evolved in nature countless times".
Maybe when you say...
Tangle writes:

I claim that it's different by both degree and kind.

...it makes people think that since you think that human intelligence is different in both degree and kind that it is unique to humans.
I can only judge your opinions by what you write - and you have written that you think that intelligence is unique to humans (i.e. has not evolved in other animals).

Real intelligence has evolved in nature countless times.


If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Tangle, posted 12-06-2011 1:22 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Tangle, posted 12-07-2011 2:21 PM Panda has responded

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 2607 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 95 of 142 (643535)
12-07-2011 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Tangle
12-07-2011 2:21 PM


Re: Irritating
Tangle writes:

This sort of remark really doesn't help.

So you are not enjoying having your mistakes pointed out.
Perhaps you could try not being wrong.

Tangle writes:

Aristotle, is likely to be more inteligent than both you and me added together. Just because he lived a long time ago or if he had lived today in a primitive environment like the tribal photo shown earlier - he, and all his society, would still be described, without dispute, as being intelligent, really intelligent.

Well - normal people would describe him as intelligent.
You, on the other hand, would gauge his intelligence by his technology and claim that you are more intelligent because you have an iPad.
quote:
Technology is an excellent measure of intelligence - obviously.
quote:
I'm writing this with an iPad from the other side of the world to a machine I've never seen, by radio. So yes, technology is one method of establishing the intelligence of a species...
According to you: chimpanzees are not intelligent even if they use pointy sticks, but Amazonian tribesmen are intelligent even though they use pointy sticks.
You seem to be very confused about what you think.

Tangle writes:

In short he had real intelligence that would be recognised by a visiting alien. Name me another species that could pass that test.

You are asking me to provide an example that passes a 'What would aliens think?' test.
Maybe you could first explain how you are performing this test and which aliens are you using?
Please be specific.

Every single mammal has real intelligence.
The only person having trouble recognising it is you.
Real intelligence has evolved many many times.


If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Tangle, posted 12-07-2011 2:21 PM Tangle has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Moon-Ra, posted 12-07-2011 6:46 PM Panda has responded

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 2607 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 99 of 142 (643544)
12-07-2011 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Moon-Ra
12-07-2011 6:46 PM


Hi Moon-Ra
Moon-Ra writes:

So brain power came way before technology (which seems to be at least part of your measure of intelligence).

It is definitely not how I measure intelligence. You are preaching to the choir.
But perhaps you could try to convince Tangle...

Moon-Ra writes:

What sets us apart is that we learned to store and share information like no other species.

This seems to be as flawed as the 'technology' argument.
In fact, the way we store and share information is mainly by using technology.
But for most of mankind's existence we have taught our young in exactly the same way that other animals do.
We may currently have very clever ways to store information, but those methods are very recent compared to the existence of humans.

Moon-Ra writes:

Now here is some food for thought, we understand very little about our brain. Some people with mental "disorders" like autism sometimes demonstrate extraordinary math skills to a point where they resolved extremely advanced math tasks without ever being taught how to.

An interesting point.
It could almost seem to be connected to Straggler and Rahvin's discussion in 'Time and Beginning' here.

If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Moon-Ra, posted 12-07-2011 6:46 PM Moon-Ra has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Moon-Ra, posted 12-07-2011 8:00 PM Panda has responded

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 2607 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 103 of 142 (643548)
12-07-2011 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Moon-Ra
12-07-2011 8:00 PM


M-R writes:

Going back to Tangle's point, an interesting question would be if those aliens that he mentions arrived here not today, but 50 thousand years ago. We, as species, would have virtually the same brain (50k year old skulls are anatomically identical to ours), but would the aliens consider us any more intelligent than Gorillas and Chimps?

Good point.
Dirty grunting humans hiding in caves does not give the impression of intelligence that Tangle demands from other animals.
But since Tangle's test is simply a version of the Common Sense fallacy, there is no actual need to address it.

If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Moon-Ra, posted 12-07-2011 8:00 PM Moon-Ra has not yet responded

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 2607 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 131 of 142 (650014)
01-27-2012 4:39 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by Larni
01-27-2012 3:18 AM


Re: Brain is a functual extension of DNA
...

Edited by Panda, : No reason given.


If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Larni, posted 01-27-2012 3:18 AM Larni has not yet responded

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 2607 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


(1)
Message 132 of 142 (650015)
01-27-2012 4:40 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by zi ko
01-27-2012 1:26 AM


Re: Brain is a functual extension of DNA
Zi Ko writes:

Anyway you may be interested to read the views o Jablonca About neural system.

quote:
...social and cultural heredity...
OMG!
Parents teaching children; seniors teaching juniors; society teaching society!

Why has no-one mentioned this before??!!!


If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by zi ko, posted 01-27-2012 1:26 AM zi ko has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by zi ko, posted 01-27-2012 11:10 AM Panda has acknowledged this reply

  
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