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Author Topic:   Instinctual Behavior Vs Intelligent Decisions
Modulous
Member (Idle past 177 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 61 of 83 (645016)
12-22-2011 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by zi ko
12-22-2011 11:19 AM


Re: Neural system and evolution.
How this knowledge is transferred to next generations if not a relative mutation does not happen on this specific crow?

Either it is not transferred or it is learned by the next generation.

If there is variety in the next generation regarding the ability to learn this skill, then we might find that those with the brain structures that make learning the skill easier and quicker (as a result of their particular genome) will more successfully reproduce meaning the generation that follows them will inherit those same brain structures leading to an increase in frequency of quick learners.

But surely the propabilities are that it will not happen.All the effort will go in vain! I dont think crows are so stupid to let it happen!

For any specific crow, this is true. And crows don't get a choice in the matter, it is not a case of being stupid. Evolution is a population wide phenomenon, though. So in the population there is likely to be variation in learning speed. If there are suitable selection pressures we might find the learning speed approaches zero over time. If that happens what was once a learned skill is now instinctual.


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Wounded King
Member (Idle past 2168 days)
Posts: 4149
From: Edinburgh, Scotland
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 62 of 83 (645026)
12-22-2011 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by zi ko
12-22-2011 10:48 AM


Re: Neural system and evolution.
The gee dance in order to inform other gees does not have any impact on environment.

Really? So it doesn't lead to changes in the behaviour of other bees or to changes in the availability of pollen depending on its accuracy?

In any case Environment change is trivial to instinct formation

Care to provide any coherent and substantive support for this claim? The idea that the environment is trivial to any aspect of adaptive evolution is pretty much unsupportable, I'm interested to see how you go about it.

Before the time learnt behavior could affect environment, many generations must have past.

An erroneous assumption when you realise that other members of a population constitute part of the environment, and even without that consideration the calim that it would take many generations to change the environment seems tenuous, do Beaver dams not affect the environment? Do they take generations to build?

But in this case how the behaviour could be transferred to next generatios?

By learning, hence it originally being a learned behaviour. Organisms in a population can sometimes learn by observing other organisms in the population and this can occur transgenerationally when the generations coexist.

I'll see if I can find any sort of example.

TTFN,

WK


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zi ko
Member (Idle past 1693 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 63 of 83 (645080)
12-23-2011 1:08 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Wounded King
12-22-2011 12:41 PM


Re: Neural system and evolution.
Your arguments are logical but so stretched up.Why not accept the simple and obviouw fact that learnt behaviour CAN be inherited. What is the evidence against it? We have only a dogmatic deny by Darwinists, which day by loses its impetus (see epigenetics studies). After all Darwin himself did not reject in some cases Lamarck's ideas.
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Wounded King
Member (Idle past 2168 days)
Posts: 4149
From: Edinburgh, Scotland
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 64 of 83 (645090)
12-23-2011 5:15 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by zi ko
12-23-2011 1:08 AM


Re: Neural system and evolution.
Why not accept the simple and obviouw fact that learnt behaviour CAN be inherited.

Sure it can, by social transmission and potentially in the longer term by the sort of canalisation/genetic assimilation I described.

What is the evidence against it? We have only a dogmatic deny by Darwinists, which day by loses its impetus (see epigenetics studies)

Wow, whenever a creationist/IDist brings up epigentics nowadays it is like a homeopathy proponent bringing up quantum mechanics, its just a word they use, they clearly have no idea what it means and they assume no one else does either but feel it adds a lovely patina of sciencyness to their nonsense.

Please provide a link to some research showing epigenetics mediating the inheritance of learned behaviour. If you can't then please stop pretending it exists.

After all Darwin himself did not reject in some cases Lamarck's ideas.

But then Darwin was wrong about a whole lot of stuff because for all his experiments in breeding he didn't really know anything about genetics.

TTFN,

WK


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Wounded King
Member (Idle past 2168 days)
Posts: 4149
From: Edinburgh, Scotland
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 65 of 83 (645096)
12-23-2011 6:49 AM


Genetic assimilation of behaviour?
OK, so I told Zi Ko I would look for some examples of the sort of learned behaviour becoming instinctual that we discussed. What follows is a brief description of the first experimental example I have found (Moray and Connolly, 1963), sadly I believe the full text is behind a paywall.

In this experiment flies were artificially selected over several rounds for and against an aversion to food flavoured with peppermint oil. The selected, and unselected, flies were then use to produce populations which were continued for multiple generations with selection applied at each generation. The populations were raised in 6 different conditions, flies averse to peppermint raised on normal food, flies non-averse to peppermint raised on normal food, unselected flies raise on normal food, flies averse to peppermint raised on peppermint food, flies non-averse to peppermint raised on peppermint food and unselected flies raise on peppermint food. Each generation the flies were tested for their aversion to peppermint.

For those populations raised on normal food the levels of aversion stayed relatively consistent for over 10 generations. In the populations raised on peppermint however the averse population rapidly loses its aversion, reaching levels comparable with the non averse after only 3 generations. If the averse population is returned to normal food after only 3 generations then it will regain its aversion however if it is returned after 7 generations it will not and the no-averse behaviour persists.

The authors explain this as a results of canalisation interacting with the strong selection for aversion applied to the population. This is perhaps a necessary conclusion since in the case of the unselected lines being raised on the peppermint food there seems to be no effect on their aversion!

Whether this should really be considered a case of a learned behaviour, non-averse behaviour in the averse population, becoming an instictual one is debatable since there was clearly already some non-averse behaviour present in the variability of the original wild-type population.

TTFN,

WK


Replies to this message:
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zi ko
Member (Idle past 1693 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 66 of 83 (645128)
12-23-2011 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Wounded King
12-23-2011 5:15 AM


Re: Neural system and evolution.
Wow, whenever a creationist/IDist brings up epigentics nowadays it is like a homeopathy proponent bringing up quantum mechanics, its just a word they use, they clearly have no idea what it means and they assume no one else does either but feel it adds a lovely patina of sciencyness to their nonsense.

Please provide a link to some research showing epigenetics mediating the inheritance of learned behaviour. If you can't then please stop pretending it exists.

I am not a Creationist. The phenomenon of learnt behaviour affecting DNA, if it happens, takes place gradually over many generations , so it can't be shown or proved easily, maybe in future.And it is not necessary these changes to happen on DNA nucleus. Any way there are plenty of hints about it in wikipedia.

Sure it can, by social transmission and potentially in the longer term by the sort of canalisation/genetic assimilation I described.

Not in this way.I mean by direct effect on genome and epigenome areas. What is the evidence against it?
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Wounded King
Member (Idle past 2168 days)
Posts: 4149
From: Edinburgh, Scotland
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 67 of 83 (645131)
12-23-2011 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by zi ko
12-23-2011 1:37 PM


Re: Neural system and evolution.
What is the evidence against it?

Well there is nothing suggesting it has never been observed to happen over many multi generational studies involving behaviour. What is the evidence for it? Oh no wait, there isn't any, you are still waiting for the scientific world to catch up with your vague musings. Still, at least you have Wikipedia to keep you up to date with cutting edge research.

I present you a way learned behaviour can become genetically represented and you choose to ignore it in favour of your pipe dreams.

TTFN,

WK


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 Message 66 by zi ko, posted 12-23-2011 1:37 PM zi ko has not yet responded

    
zi ko
Member (Idle past 1693 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 68 of 83 (645220)
12-24-2011 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Wounded King
12-23-2011 6:49 AM


Re: Genetic assimilation of behaviour?
Whether this should really be considered a case of a learned behaviour, non-averse behaviour in the averse population, becoming an instictual one is debatable since there was clearly already some non-averse behaviour present in the variability of the original wild-type population.

At least there is doupt about final explanation and i hope there are also doupts about the main issue of learnt behaviour being ingrained in general genome structures.
Mind you the experiment gave us these interesting results after about 10 generations. What would had happened after,say, 1000 generations?

Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.


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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 69 of 83 (647970)
01-12-2012 11:19 AM


A great example
First off, this is just cool as shit - OMG! Crows sledding!

Secondly, it relates to the topic of this thread.

http://youtu.be/YP9RnDp_tms

It looks to me like this crow is playing... just having a good ol' time making some intelligent decisions. Not something I would call instictual behavior.


Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Larni, posted 01-12-2012 12:20 PM New Cat's Eye has acknowledged this reply
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Larni
Member
Posts: 3975
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005
Member Rating: 8.6


Message 70 of 83 (647978)
01-12-2012 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by New Cat's Eye
01-12-2012 11:19 AM


Re: A great example
Crows are one of my favourite animals. Along with weasel-beavers, cats and spiders.

The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53

The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286

Well, Larni, let's say I much better know what I don't want to say than how exactly say what I do.


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hooah212002
Member
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 71 of 83 (648037)
01-12-2012 6:43 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by New Cat's Eye
01-12-2012 11:19 AM


Re: A great example
I saw that and thought "stupid bird....you can fly, but you think sledding is fun????"

Mythology is what we call someone elses religion. Joseph Campbell

This message is a reply to:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 6665
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 72 of 83 (648066)
01-13-2012 3:27 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by New Cat's Eye
01-12-2012 11:19 AM


Re: A great example
Crows are pretty damn smart.

Intelligence
As a group, crows show remarkable examples of intelligence. Crows and ravens often score very highly on intelligence tests. Certain species top the avian IQ scale.[9] Wild hooded crows in Israel have learned to use bread crumbs for bait-fishing.[10] Crows will engage in a kind of mid-air jousting, or air-"chicken" to establish pecking order. Crows have been found to engage in feats such as tool use, the ability to hide and store food across seasons, episodic-like memory,[vague] and the ability to use individual experience in predicting the behavior of environmental conspecifics.[11]
One species, the New Caledonian Crow, has also been intensively studied recently because of its ability to manufacture and use its own tools in the day-to-day search for food. These tools include 'knives' cut from stiff leaves and stiff stalks of grass.[12] Another skill involves dropping tough nuts into a trafficked street and waiting for a car to crush them open.[13][14] On October 5, 2007, researchers from the University of Oxford, England presented data acquired by mounting tiny video cameras on the tails of New Caledonian Crows. It turned out that they use a larger variety of tools than previously known, plucking, smoothing, and bending twigs and grass stems to procure a variety of foodstuffs.[15][16] Crows in Queensland, Australia have learned how to eat the toxic cane toad by flipping the cane toad on its back and violently stabbing the throat where the skin is thinner, allowing the crow to access the non-toxic innards; their long beaks ensure that all of the innards can be removed.[17][18]
Recent research suggests that crows have the ability to recognize one individual human from another by facial features.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crow#Intelligence

Edited by Tangle, : Typo


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 73 of 83 (648169)
01-13-2012 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by hooah212002
01-12-2012 6:43 PM


Re: A great example
I saw that and thought "stupid bird....you can fly, but you think sledding is fun????"

I lol'd at the youtube comment:

quote:
It feels like you're flying!

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zi ko
Member (Idle past 1693 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 74 of 83 (648352)
01-14-2012 11:01 PM


innate intelligence in life?
Could somebody please answer me the following questions?
1.Is animal intelligene inherited?
2.How Is it acquired?
3.when does it start appearing in animal scale?
4.Does it affect evolution?
5.Is it instinctual or learnt?
6.Does it differ from that of man except quantitavely?
7. Is "correcting mechanism"inside cells a sign of primeval intelligence?

Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.


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zi ko
Member (Idle past 1693 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 75 of 83 (648353)
01-14-2012 11:40 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Wounded King
12-23-2011 6:49 AM


Re: Genetic assimilation of behaviour?
The authors explain this as a results of canalisation interacting with the strong selection for aversion applied to the population. This is perhaps a necessary conclusion since in the case of the unselected lines being raised on the peppermint food there seems to be no effect on their aversion!

Whether this should really be considered a case of a learned behaviour, non-averse behaviour in the averse population, becoming an instictual one is debatable since there was clearly already some non-averse behaviour present in the variability of the original wild-type population.

As far as i could understand, we have here an examble of learnt and inherited behaviour possibly becoming instinctual, even at the short span of 7 generations !


This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Wounded King, posted 12-23-2011 6:49 AM Wounded King has acknowledged this reply

    
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