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Author Topic:   Does the universe have total net energy of zero?
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member

 Message 286 of 404 (698614) 05-08-2013 12:45 PM Reply to: Message 285 by justatruthseeker05-08-2013 12:36 PM

 It's been on topic from the start, had you even bother to read what plasma is you would realize it is an electrified medium. Since electric currents exist everywhere, including your brain (although some could argue that and I wouldn't have a defense in your case) it is impossible for the universe to be electrically neutral. Especially if we consider that there is NO gravitational model for the atom, only electrical. So what holds atoms together and by extension you if no electricity is allowed?

Oh God, you're really out of your league here.

Do you know what a "net" charge is? And how we can have amounts of positive and negatively charged ions but still have a total net charge of zero?

 This message is a reply to: Message 285 by justatruthseeker, posted 05-08-2013 12:36 PM justatruthseeker has responded

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justatruthseeker
Member (Idle past 2110 days)
Posts: 117
From: Tulsa, OK, USA
Joined: 05-05-2013

 Message 287 of 404 (698617) 05-08-2013 1:03 PM Reply to: Message 286 by New Cat's Eye05-08-2013 12:45 PM

Then explain how a quote "neutral" unquote neutron is attracted to both negative and positive charges if it is neutral? You are totally confused as to what neutral means when discussing electric charges. It means there are equal amounts of both negative and positive charges, not that no charge exists at all. Learn your science, that is 4th grade teaching. That is how the positive protons in the nucleus are prevented from flying apart, you know, negative and positive atract, but positive repells positive, negative repels negative. So the neutron by attracting the positive protons to its negative charge prevent them from flying apart, just as it prevents the negative electrons from slaming into the positive protons because of that same negative charge. being you know nothing about charge I would of expected you to do some research before attempting to argue the very fact of charge.

 This message is a reply to: Message 286 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-08-2013 12:45 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

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ringo
Member
Posts: 19144
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5

 Message 288 of 404 (698627) 05-08-2013 1:52 PM Reply to: Message 285 by justatruthseeker05-08-2013 12:36 PM

 justatruthseeker writes:Since electric currents exist everywhere, including your brain (although some could argue that and I wouldn't have a defense in your case) it is impossible for the universe to be electrically neutral.

Water flows downhill, then it evaporates back up. The water cycle has a "total flow" of zero.

It's the same with electrical currents. They exist because neutrality is the natural state.

 This message is a reply to: Message 285 by justatruthseeker, posted 05-08-2013 12:36 PM justatruthseeker has responded

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justatruthseeker
Member (Idle past 2110 days)
Posts: 117
From: Tulsa, OK, USA
Joined: 05-05-2013

 Message 289 of 404 (698629) 05-08-2013 1:58 PM Reply to: Message 288 by ringo05-08-2013 1:52 PM

A quote from your very own science books:
quote:
The Standard Model of particle physics predicts a tiny separation of positive and negative charge within the neutron leading to a permanent electric dipole moment.

So what was that again about neutral????

And electricity could care less if your coffe pot is above or below the electrical outlet, it requires not the slightest bit of gravity to function.

Edited by justatruthseeker, : No reason given.

Edited by justatruthseeker, : No reason given.

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 Message 290 of 404 (698631) 05-08-2013 2:02 PM Reply to: Message 285 by justatruthseeker05-08-2013 12:36 PM

 It's been on topic from the start, had you even bother to read what plasma is you would realize it is an electrified medium. Since electric currents exist everywhere, including your brain (although some could argue that and I wouldn't have a defense in your case) it is impossible for the universe to be electrically neutral. Especially if we consider that there is NO gravitational model for the atom, only electrical. So what holds atoms together and by extension you if no electricity is allowed?

You can't get better until you realize that you have a problem.

 This message is a reply to: Message 285 by justatruthseeker, posted 05-08-2013 12:36 PM justatruthseeker has not yet responded

justatruthseeker
Member (Idle past 2110 days)
Posts: 117
From: Tulsa, OK, USA
Joined: 05-05-2013

 Message 291 of 404 (698634) 05-08-2013 2:14 PM Reply to: Message 288 by ringo05-08-2013 1:52 PM

What was that about water and evaporation????

http://iopscience.iop.org/0963-0252/21/1/015009

http://www.plasma-air.de/Steam_Plasma_Burner_-2-91.htm

plasma is involved in steam as well.

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ringo
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From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
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 Message 292 of 404 (698635) 05-08-2013 2:14 PM Reply to: Message 289 by justatruthseeker05-08-2013 1:58 PM

 justatruthseeker writes:So what was that again about neutral????

Your quote says, "... within the neutron...." That's a localized dipole. We're talking about the overall charge on the whole universe here.

 justatruthseeker writes:And electricity could care less if your coffe pot is above or below the electrical outlet, it requires not the slightest bit of gravity to function.

But the electrical outlet does have to be grounded. The electrons won't flow in nless the can get back out and returnto the power plant.

 This message is a reply to: Message 289 by justatruthseeker, posted 05-08-2013 1:58 PM justatruthseeker has responded

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 (1)
 Message 293 of 404 (698636) 05-08-2013 2:18 PM Reply to: Message 291 by justatruthseeker05-08-2013 2:14 PM

 What was that about water and evaporation????http://iopscience.iop.org/0963-0252/21/1/015009http://www.plasma-air.de/Steam_Plasma_Burner_-2-91.htmplasma is involved in steam as well.

My God you're stupid.

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ringo
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From: frozen wasteland
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 Message 294 of 404 (698637) 05-08-2013 2:20 PM Reply to: Message 291 by justatruthseeker05-08-2013 2:14 PM

 justatruthseeker writes:plasma is involved in steam as well.

Sure, you can cause localized concentrations of energy but that doesn't effect the overall energy of the unverse. All you're doing is moving it around.

At the risk of confusing you further with another analogy, pushing sand into piles doesn't effect the total amount of sand.

 This message is a reply to: Message 291 by justatruthseeker, posted 05-08-2013 2:14 PM justatruthseeker has responded

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justatruthseeker
Member (Idle past 2110 days)
Posts: 117
From: Tulsa, OK, USA
Joined: 05-05-2013

 Message 295 of 404 (698640) 05-08-2013 2:26 PM Reply to: Message 292 by ringo05-08-2013 2:14 PM

Where have you measured this overall charge but "localized"? And everywhere you measure it, it is anything but neutral!

http://electronics.stackexchange.com/...-circuit-be-grounded

Voltage has no set strength, only relative to something else, which conversely means that no matter what you measure it has voltage, just more or less to whatever you pick as your starting value.

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 Message 296 of 404 (698641) 05-08-2013 2:30 PM Reply to: Message 295 by justatruthseeker05-08-2013 2:26 PM

 Where have you measured this overall charge but "localized"? And everywhere you measure it, it is anything but neutral!http://electronics.stackexchange.com/...-circuit-be-groundedVoltage has no set strength, only relative to something else, which conversely means that no matter what you measure it has voltage, just more or less to whatever you pick as your starting value.

A voltage of zero is zero no matter what your units of measurement.

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ringo
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Posts: 19144
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
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 Message 297 of 404 (698642) 05-08-2013 2:38 PM Reply to: Message 295 by justatruthseeker05-08-2013 2:26 PM

 justatruthseeker writes:Where have you measured this overall charge but "localized"? And everywhere you measure it, it is anything but neutral!

Have you added up all of the localized charges in the universe to prove that the sum isn't zero?

 justbeingreal writes:Voltage has no set strength, only relative to something else, which conversely means that no matter what you measure it has voltage, just more or less to whatever you pick as your starting value.

Voltage is just the potential to flow. Current exists because of voltage and because the natural tendency is toward neutrality.

 This message is a reply to: Message 295 by justatruthseeker, posted 05-08-2013 2:26 PM justatruthseeker has not yet responded

NoNukes
Inactive Member

 Message 298 of 404 (698643) 05-08-2013 2:39 PM Reply to: Message 287 by justatruthseeker05-08-2013 1:03 PM

 Learn your science, that is 4th grade teaching. That is how the positive protons in the nucleus are prevented from flying apart, you know, negative and positive atract, but positive repells positive, negative repels negative. So the neutron by attracting the positive protons to its negative charge prevent them from flying apart,

A fair proposal, but one that is not matched to the evidence. The standard model does predict an extremely tiny neutron dipole moment of 10–32e·cm, but that moment is simple not strong enough to explain why an atom like He-3 is completely stable despite the repulsion of the two protons. The strong nuclear force does that work.

There is a wikipedia article on the neutron electric dipole moment that is reasonably supported with pointers to the experimental evidence and the theoretical support for the tiny value of the nedm. I see no reason to take your word for it.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

 This message is a reply to: Message 287 by justatruthseeker, posted 05-08-2013 1:03 PM justatruthseeker has responded

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NoNukes
Inactive Member

 Message 299 of 404 (698648) 05-08-2013 3:23 PM Reply to: Message 296 by Dr Adequate05-08-2013 2:30 PM

When we measure voltage at a point we measure a difference in potential between that point and a reference. We can choose different reference potentials and thus get different voltage readings for the same point.

I don't think this idea is in any way helpful to justatruthseeker, but let's watch him run with it. I'm beginning to enjoy his, er... enthusiasm for rescuing science from the lies and cover ups. I see a future POTM nomination for him.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

 This message is a reply to: Message 296 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-08-2013 2:30 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

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justatruthseeker
Member (Idle past 2110 days)
Posts: 117
From: Tulsa, OK, USA
Joined: 05-05-2013

 Message 300 of 404 (698649) 05-08-2013 3:36 PM Reply to: Message 294 by ringo05-08-2013 2:20 PM

quote:
Sure, you can cause localized concentrations of energy but that doesn't effect the overall energy of the unverse. All you're doing is moving it around.

What energy, i thought you said it summed to 0? 1 + 1 + 2 does not sum to 0, but what should I have expected from someone that believes dividing by zero is mathematically acceptable. If you have 5 sources of energy 1 volt each in a universe devoid of any other charge, the universe still sums to 5.

 This message is a reply to: Message 294 by ringo, posted 05-08-2013 2:20 PM ringo has responded

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