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Author Topic:   Is Fingerprint Analysis a Science?
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 38 (644108)
12-15-2011 9:01 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Percy
12-15-2011 7:03 AM


Sandy L. Zabell writes:
In 1995, the Collaborative Testing Service (CTS) administered a proficiency test that, for the first time, was designed, assembled, and reviewed by the International Association for Identification (IAI).The results were disappointing. Four suspect cards with prints of all ten fingers were provided together with seven latents. Of 156 people taking the test, only 68 (44%) correctly classified all seven latents. Overall, the tests contained a total of 48 incorrect identifications.
This doesn't seem surprising where people are involved. Latent prints and especially partials probably leave a lot of room for human interpretation.
According to Wiki, polygraphs are even said to have a better accuracy rate, at about 61%:
quote:
Wikipedia on Polygraph:
Polygraphy has little credibility among scientists. Despite claims of 90-95% validity by polygraph advocates, and 95-100% by businesses providing polygraph services, critics maintain that rather than a "test", the method amounts to an inherently unstandardizable interrogation technique whose accuracy cannot be established. A 1997 survey of 421 psychologists estimated the test's average accuracy at about 61%, a little better than chance.
It's disturbing that such horribly inaccurate identification methods are allowed in court, where they can be used to completely alter another person's life.
Jon
Edited by Jon, : No reason given.

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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 38 (644143)
12-15-2011 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Rahvin
12-15-2011 12:17 PM


Eyewitness testimony is roughly as bad.
And I don't think eyewitness testimony should be allowed in court. There was, I think, a thread about a similar topic on the short-lived spin-off forum Politicus Maximus... but the Wayback Machine doesn't seem to recognize the name.
But the issue here, I guess, is the status of fingerprint analysis as a science or not.
I think the whole thing is a bunch of match-up and puzzle-doing; more of a hobby, really, and so even if practiced scientifically, probably not overly reliable since it depends on the abilities of the analysts more than on some rigorous standards that are harder to screw up.
Jon

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 38 (644146)
12-15-2011 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Straggler
12-15-2011 1:40 PM


A sufficiently advanced pattern matching algorithm could surely allow computers to do all the matching required and to rigorously determine the statistical likelihood of error based on the quality of any given fingerprint.
Perhaps. As I said, though, even if we find a way to practice fingerprint analysis scientifically, can we ever consider the analysts to be reliable?
I brought up polygraphs earlier. Reading the Wiki article further, we find this:
quote:
Wikipedia on Polygraph:
In the 1998 Supreme Court case, United States v. Scheffer, the majority stated that "There is simply no consensus that polygraph evidence is reliable" and "Unlike other expert witnesses who testify about factual matters outside the jurors' knowledge, such as the analysis of fingerprints, ballistics, or DNA found at a crime scene, a polygraph expert can supply the jury only with another opinion..."
How does the testimony of finger print analysts compare?
Even when we make the practice scientific, how reliable, really, are the 'experts' giving the testimony?
Jon

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 38 (644227)
12-16-2011 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Straggler
12-16-2011 8:02 AM


Well if human fingerprints genuinely are unique and can reliably be used to identify people then it is just a matter of technology capable of reliably and accurately doing the necessary pattern matching.
Agreed, but computers aren't put on witness stands.
With such technology in place I don't see that the role of analysts would be of much consequence.
Don't be silly. 'Experts' can be bought and sold like anyone else. Look at the oil 'scientists' who can't admit that global warming is a problem.
It seems that existing problems with fingerprinting are down to human elements that technology should eventually be able to overcome.
The technical aspects of it, sure. But that certainly doesn't seem to be true about the legal aspects.
Jon

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Straggler, posted 12-16-2011 8:02 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by NoNukes, posted 12-16-2011 10:47 AM Jon has replied
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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 38 (644251)
12-16-2011 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by NoNukes
12-16-2011 10:47 AM


For example, someone asks if the experts are scientists, and nobody answers. The discussion continues as if the question has been answered in the negative.
The answer to that question comes with the answer to the question of the OP: Is fingerprint analysis a science? If so, then obviously anyone practicing it should be considered a scientist.
The closest thing to evidence I've seen here is reference to a study whose conclusions everyone seems to agree are flawed.
Which one is that?
then perhaps what you really have issues with is the legal system in general rather than finger print evidence in particular.
The topic of the thread is fingerprints. While I realize the motive for starting the thread was just to discuss the scientific basis for fingerprint analysis, there have understandably developed several conversations regarding the legal reliability and validity of expert fingerprint analyst testimony.
Jon

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 38 (644453)
12-18-2011 1:47 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Straggler
12-17-2011 9:04 AM


Re: Legal Vs Unscientific
I think we're in agreement here.
There is definitely a science to fingerprint analysis.

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This message is a reply to:
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