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Author Topic:   Is Fingerprint Analysis a Science?
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 5 of 38 (644107)
12-15-2011 8:38 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Trixie
12-15-2011 6:14 AM


Scientific Conclusions and Opinions
Trix writes:
So where do we draw the line between science and opinion?
Well (as a starting point) scientific conclusions are necessarily based on scientific evidence whilst opinions have no such restriction. One can have an opinion that is based on evidence, but one can equally hold an opinion that isn't based on evidence or even an opinion which contradicts evidence.
Conclusions based on fingerprint analysis would seem to qualify as scientific conclusions rather than opinions on this basis. The fact that the analysis was done poorly in this particular example shouldn't detract from that.

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 Message 1 by Trixie, posted 12-15-2011 6:14 AM Trixie has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 13 of 38 (644144)
12-15-2011 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Jon
12-15-2011 1:27 PM


Jon writes:
I think the whole thing is a bunch of match-up and puzzle-doing; more of a hobby, really, and so even if practiced scientifically, probably not overly reliable since it depends on the abilities of the analysts more than on some rigorous standards that are harder to screw up.
Surely this is just a question of technology. A sufficiently advanced pattern matching algorithm could surely allow computers to do all the matching required and to rigorously determine the statistical likelihood of error based on the quality of any given fingerprint.
If the premise of fingerprint matching is sound but human involvement in matching is the failing here then that can be technologically overcome.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Jon, posted 12-15-2011 1:27 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Rahvin, posted 12-15-2011 2:16 PM Straggler has replied
 Message 15 by Jon, posted 12-15-2011 2:41 PM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 19 of 38 (644216)
12-16-2011 8:02 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Jon
12-15-2011 2:41 PM


Jon writes:
Even when we make the practice scientific, how reliable, really, are the 'experts' giving the testimony?
Well if human fingerprints genuinely are unique and can reliably be used to identify people then it is just a matter of technology capable of reliably and accurately doing the necessary pattern matching.
With such technology in place I don't see that the role of analysts would be of much consequence.
It seems that existing problems with fingerprinting are down to human elements that technology should eventually be able to overcome.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Jon, posted 12-15-2011 2:41 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Jon, posted 12-16-2011 8:59 AM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 20 of 38 (644220)
12-16-2011 8:10 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Rahvin
12-15-2011 2:16 PM


Whether a form of evidence is scientific or not is not dependent on the people using that evidence understanding it (or misunderstanding it and thus misapplying it).
If fingerprints are a method of identifying people then accurate pattern matching and error estimation is just a question of technology.
If currently we don't have appropriate technology and we are relying on highly fallible human judgements then that is an issue and does indeed raise doubts about individual conclusions. But it doesn't make the process of fingerprint identification itself unscientific.
If people (e.g. juries) don't understand the nature of such evidence then - again - that doesn't make the evidence itself unscientific either.

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 Message 14 by Rahvin, posted 12-15-2011 2:16 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 30 of 38 (644351)
12-17-2011 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Jon
12-16-2011 8:59 AM


Legal Vs Unscientific
Straggler writes:
Well if human fingerprints genuinely are unique and can reliably be used to identify people then it is just a matter of technology capable of reliably and accurately doing the necessary pattern matching.
Jon writes:
Agreed, but computers aren't put on witness stands.
If the problem is with the human presentation of evidence rather than the evidence itself then that is a problem with the legal process. Not a problem with forensic science being somehow unscientific.
Jon writes:
Don't be silly. 'Experts' can be bought and sold like anyone else. Look at the oil 'scientists' who can't admit that global warming is a problem.
The fact that some scientists are deluded, incompetent or willing to lie for money doesn't make geology (in the case of 'oil scientists') or forensic science unscientific does it?
Straggler writes:
It seems that existing problems with fingerprinting are down to human elements that technology should eventually be able to overcome.
Jon writes:
The technical aspects of it, sure. But that certainly doesn't seem to be true about the legal aspects.
Then that is a problem with the legal process rather than anything to do with how scientific or unscientific fingerprint identification through pattern matching is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Jon, posted 12-16-2011 8:59 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Jon, posted 12-18-2011 1:47 AM Straggler has not replied

  
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