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Author Topic:   Evidence to expect given a designer
subbie
Member
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


(3)
Message 8 of 373 (644160)
12-15-2011 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by mike the wiz
12-15-2011 1:23 PM


Is the arrangement of wires in this antenna designed or not?

How can you tell?


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by mike the wiz, posted 12-15-2011 1:23 PM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by mike the wiz, posted 01-03-2012 2:48 PM subbie has responded

  
subbie
Member
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 29 of 373 (644244)
12-16-2011 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Just being real
12-16-2011 5:31 AM


Looking back at Subbie's picture, ... [clipping irrelevant stuff]

Sorry, but you missed the point. My specific question was whether the arrangement of the wires was by design. Care to give it another go?


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Just being real, posted 12-16-2011 5:31 AM Just being real has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Just being real, posted 12-17-2011 5:27 AM subbie has responded

  
subbie
Member
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 53 of 373 (644410)
12-17-2011 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Just being real
12-17-2011 5:27 AM


Well given the definition of specificity and my lack of any knowledge about antennas,

Well, I'd love to hear what your level of knowledge is about chemistry and biology that you think gives you sufficient basis for making any claims of design in biology.


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Just being real, posted 12-17-2011 5:27 AM Just being real has not yet responded

  
subbie
Member
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 179 of 373 (646140)
01-03-2012 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by Just being real
12-23-2011 12:53 AM


In DNA, specific function implies intent because specific function has only been observed originating by intelligence.

Wrong.

This antenna

has a specific function. It was created by NASA through a process that involved no intelligent input into the arrangement of the wires.


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist


This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Just being real, posted 12-23-2011 12:53 AM Just being real has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by mike the wiz, posted 01-03-2012 2:38 PM subbie has responded
 Message 245 by Just being real, posted 01-08-2012 5:34 AM subbie has responded

  
subbie
Member
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


(1)
Message 182 of 373 (646170)
01-03-2012 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by mike the wiz
01-03-2012 2:38 PM


They certainly did. And they did it, with no design or intelligent input.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist


This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by mike the wiz, posted 01-03-2012 2:38 PM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by mike the wiz, posted 01-03-2012 2:54 PM subbie has responded

  
subbie
Member
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


(1)
Message 186 of 373 (646178)
01-03-2012 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by mike the wiz
01-03-2012 2:48 PM


Antenna gymnastics
I was specifically replying to this quote from Just Being Real:

In DNA, specific function implies intent because specific function has only been observed originating by intelligence.

In his quote, he did not say specific function in DNA has only been observed originating by intelligence. He did not limit it to any particular type of specific function. The quote encompassed all specific function. The proffered example is something that has a specific function, the design of which evolved without any intelligence of any type.

If you think that the arrangement of wires is not "GENUINELY complex," then you need to define what you mean by "GENUINELY complex."

I'm delighted with the example because it so breathtakingly clearly shows that the appearance of design can arise out of descent with modification. It also tickles me pink that so many cdesign proponentists twist themselves in such knots to avoid the inevitable conclusion. It's fun to watch the gymnastics.

What we mean by design and information, is something sophisticated and specific.

Those wires are a sophisticated arrangement that is specifically intended to be an optimal receiver of radio signals. Again, if this doesn't fit your terms, you need to define them more clearly.


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist


This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by mike the wiz, posted 01-03-2012 2:48 PM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by mike the wiz, posted 01-03-2012 3:36 PM subbie has responded

  
subbie
Member
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


(1)
Message 187 of 373 (646183)
01-03-2012 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by mike the wiz
01-03-2012 2:54 PM


Yes, they did it with an intent to create an antenna. And they created the arrangement of wires through descent with modification. No intelligence involved. That defeats the claim by cdesign proponentists that intelligence is required to produce the appearance of design.

...I have made some myself,...

You have written a genetic algorithm? Somehow I doubt that. If you meant to say that you bent antennas in a seemingly random way and ended up with something that received radio signals, I find that quite likely, but point out that it is completely different from the genetic algorithm that created that antenna, and others.

Can I also randonly hit the "negative" button for every post you type, please?

You can do that, certainly, although why you say randomly I have no idea. I never randomly hit jeers for any posts. Each post I jeer I do so for specific reasons that I'd be more than willing to articulate anytime you wish. Often, someone else has already said something about it, and I see no need to pile on. But whatever.

Of course, I have always got a low member rating so I am not bothered, but I see you have a good score, so it will kind of hurt you more.

Wow. That you could even conceive that your jeering me would have any impact on me in any way other than mild amusement speaks volumes about your level of maturity. Knock yourself out, jeer away.


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist


This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by mike the wiz, posted 01-03-2012 2:54 PM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by mike the wiz, posted 01-03-2012 3:44 PM subbie has responded

  
subbie
Member
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 191 of 373 (646189)
01-03-2012 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by mike the wiz
01-03-2012 3:36 PM


Re: Antenna gymnastics
So, you don't have a definition of complex. It's just a term you throw out to dismiss counterexamples when you don't have anything substantive to say about them. Is that it?

I agree that at its simplest, an antenna does not necessarily require any specific arrangement. I believe the same is also true of a church, a spear, a knife and countless other objects. This, of course, ignores the fact that some do have a specific shape to perform a specific purpose. The example I provided is one of those.


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist


This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by mike the wiz, posted 01-03-2012 3:36 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded

  
subbie
Member
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


(1)
Message 194 of 373 (646193)
01-03-2012 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by mike the wiz
01-03-2012 3:44 PM


No, it does not prove that you can get a complex genome, with code, syntax, pragmatics and apobetics because the example is INHERENTLY without the need for any real sophisticated design.

The specific example I chose is one that does need a sophisticated design. Your ignorance of that fact does not make it go away.


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist


This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by mike the wiz, posted 01-03-2012 3:44 PM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by mike the wiz, posted 01-03-2012 4:25 PM subbie has responded

  
subbie
Member
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 200 of 373 (646207)
01-03-2012 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by mike the wiz
01-03-2012 4:25 PM


That's right. Stick your fingers in your ears, close your eyes and keep praying. That way, nothing disquieting will intrude on your little world. Just do me one favor, will you? Please keep it to yourself as the rest of the world moves on without you. M'kay pumpkin?

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist


This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by mike the wiz, posted 01-03-2012 4:25 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded

  
subbie
Member
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 286 of 373 (647184)
01-08-2012 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 245 by Just being real
01-08-2012 5:34 AM


It was an intelligently designed computer running an intelligently programmed algorithm. The algorithm began with a random set of wire arrangements. The algorithm determined which of that set functioned best then randomly combined those together to get a new set. This process repeated.

Please show me at what point in that algorithm intelligence was a factor.


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist


This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by Just being real, posted 01-08-2012 5:34 AM Just being real has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 295 by Just being real, posted 01-08-2012 10:23 PM subbie has responded

  
subbie
Member
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 303 of 373 (647286)
01-09-2012 12:55 AM
Reply to: Message 295 by Just being real
01-08-2012 10:23 PM


So the configuration of the wires didn't become intelligently designed until it received a signal?

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist


This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by Just being real, posted 01-08-2012 10:23 PM Just being real has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 314 by Just being real, posted 01-11-2012 12:40 PM subbie has responded

  
subbie
Member
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 325 of 373 (647868)
01-11-2012 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 314 by Just being real
01-11-2012 12:40 PM


But it's been busted.

Your failure to understand it does not equate with it being busted. It simply equate with you not understanding.

Time to move on.

This I agree with. You are either unwilling or unable to understand my point. In either event, it's apparent that further attempts to explain it to you will be futile.


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist


This message is a reply to:
 Message 314 by Just being real, posted 01-11-2012 12:40 PM Just being real has not yet responded

  
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