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dwise1
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Message 194 of 560 (852408)
05-09-2019 10:45 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by Sarah Bellum
05-09-2019 7:48 PM


That can actually be derived from the infamous Milgram experiment (Stanley Milgram, 1963) in which ordinary nice people end up giving potentially lethal electric shocks to another subject in the experiment (who was in the next room and was actually in on the experiment) -- you'll recognize it as soon as you start reading the Wikipedia article at that link. Basically, the experimenter authority figure (complete with lab coat and clipboard) would instruct the subject to apply the next higher voltage, and the next higher, and the next higher, etc. Even after the "student" complained about having a heart condition. Even after the next room suddenly became deathly silent.
One of the things that the lab coat would use -- and which is key to this discussion -- was to accept full responsibility for the consequences of the "teacher's" action, which was enough to convince some of the subjects to continue. The article gives two interpretations that Milgram had for the results, the second one being:
quote:
The second {interpretation} is the agentic state theory, wherein, per Milgram, "the essence of obedience consists in the fact that a person comes to view themselves as the instrument for carrying out another person's wishes, and they therefore no longer see themselves as responsible for their actions. Once this critical shift of viewpoint has occurred in the person, all of the essential features of obedience follow".
We can see where this is going. A common theistic morality argument is along the lines that morality is only valid if you are responsible to God, so since atheists reject God that means that they have no responsibility to be moral and hence atheists cannot be moral. Of course, that is incorrect because atheists are indeed still responsible for their actions, but they are responsible to themselves and to everybody they encounter, ie to each other.
Furthermore, when a theist loses his faith and stops believing in God, then everything he'd been taught tells him that he no longer has any reason to be moral and that he can commit any sin whatsoever with impunity (ignoring problems that could cause you with civil authorities). We've encountered "true Christians" who are convinced that they'd be axe murderers if not for their belief in God. I've also encountered Christian "atheists" whose Christian doctrine had lured them into becoming "atheists" as teenagers so that they give free reign to their bubbling hormones and do it free of sin -- one creationist activist who tells that story and falsely claims to have been an atheist had also admitted that he continued to believe in God and prayed to God every single night that he was an "atheist", yet he still insists emphatically that he was an atheist.
In our developmental psychology textbook, one chapter examined the development of one's sense of morality and how certain types of moral reasoning are common at various ages and how it develops as we mature (hopefully).
Young children up to around age 5 develop "rules-based morality", in which an authority figure (eg, parents, teachers, police) gives you a list of arbitrary rules and your sole responsibility is to obey those rules. If any harm results from you obeying those rules, then you are not responsible for that harm, but rather its the responsibility of the rules-giver. Then as we mature, we learn to examine the consequences, etc.
What religion does, especially for "true Christians", is lock them into a rules-based morality. God gave us these rules and we are responsible to God to obey those rules. Doesn't matter whether those rules cause harm to others, we must obey them at all cost and whatever happens is God's Will, right? And if you interpret that God-given Absolute Morality as telling you to do bad things to others, then that's what you feel responsible to God to do.
Of course actual mileage may vary, but that's how I would interpret that quote.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by Sarah Bellum, posted 05-09-2019 7:48 PM Sarah Bellum has replied

Replies to this message:
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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5949
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 244 of 560 (875213)
04-17-2020 12:36 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by GDR
04-16-2020 11:40 AM


Re: Religious people give more
First, just for perspective, there's the Judaic teaching about charity from the Pirke Avoth ("Sayings of the Fathers") (from memory):
quote:
There are four kinds of giving:
  • Where the donor knows who the recipient is and the recipient knows who the donor is.
  • Where the donor knows who the recipient is, but the recipient does not know who the donor is.
  • Where the donor does not know who the recipient is, but the recipient knows who the donor is.
  • Where the donor does not know who the recipient is and the recipient does not know who the donor is.

One of the sticky points of charity is the same as for altruism: giving/sacrificing with no thought of reward (for if you give or sacrifice for sake of being rewarded (eg, with salvation, with advancing your religion) then you are in fact not being altruistic). Giving with recipients knowing who you are will have you seeking praise, while giving knowing who the recipients are can have you seeking to support specific groups for non-charitable motives. Only that last combination with donor and recipients not knowing who each other is would most safely approach charity.
BTW, there are several such teachings which examine the four possible combinations of two characteristics (eg, the four kinds of students based on how quickly or slowly they learn and how well they retain what they have learned).
 
The first problem with that the article is from the Washington Times (not the Washington Post). It was founded by Unification movement leader Sun Myung Moon and is owned by Operations Holdings, which is owned by the Unification movement. IOW, Moonies!
That raises the issue of strong religionist bias in the article, which is borne out by the article itself, in which the only factor it examines is religious affiliation versus non-religious. It completely ignores other important factors to explain the numbers. In that, it is nothing more than a typical religionist hatchet job trying to falsely claim some kind of moral superiority.
Although I should have presented this one second, one simple factor that the article ignores is one of organization. Religious affiliations are organized whereas non-religious affiliations tend to not be organized since they commonly consist of unaffiliated individuals and small discussion groups.
It's a simple fact that effective charity requires organization. You need to identify where the need is and what is needed. You need to set up collection and distribution networks. Collection can be augmented by organizing drives for donors. In contrast, unorganized individuals are busy enough just living their lives and getting by, which leaves them with very little time to do a lot of redundant independent research identifying need, analyzing how to address that need, and applying a small amount of personal excess funds which ends up being very ineffective in address that need.
Religious associations are able to mount the organization that dispersed individuals cannot. Thus they are able to do what dispersed individuals cannot do. Of course, that has absolutely no bearing on whether their beliefs are true nor whether their teachings are of value.
Also, with their power to identify where the need is and how to address it, they are subject to the temptation to exploit their charity work to advance their own sectarian agenda. And the non-religious are then tasked with determining whether a particular charity has a religious agenda that they do not wish to promote with their contributions. More on all that below.
A second factor involves religious teachings and peer pressure. The religiously-affiliated are preached to and taught to tithe and give to charities. Then their religious affiliations present several organized charities to them, a number of them missionary work (ie, going out and proselytizing). And their religious affiliations set up or host collection drives in which they and the members of the congregations pressure congregation members to contribute.
So why do the religious contribute? Because they are taught that they must. Because they somehow feel that by "being charitable" they are gaining "Brownie points" for salvation; even though that might not be theologically sound, that feeling still remains. At the very least, they feel that if they are indeed saved, then they need to demonstrate that "fact" by acting charitably *. But the real selling point is that those charities promote their church's mission in proselytizing.

FOOTNOTE *:
Despite the "discussion" over salvation by works, etc, there remains the idea that your "saved" state must manifest itself in works.
That is expressed as the Fruit of the Holy Spirit (chapter 5 of the Epistle to the Galatians), all kinds of good qualities you are supposed to automatically get just because you are saved. I have read a number of deconversion stories of ex-Christians who were traumatized as teenagers raised in the Faith, because the fact that they had not been given the Fruit of the Holy Spirit was evidence that they weren't actually saved.

Obviously, those pressures do not exist for the non-religious, but that does not keep the non-religious from making charitable contributions. Though for the sake of actually helping others instead of trying to promote a particular religion.
That puts an extra obstacle in the way of the non-religious making charitable contributions. Nobody would want to contribute to any cause that they would oppose. For example, as I understand there were some innocuous-looking charities that actually funded ISIS, so those who opposed ISIS (most of us) would not want to be caught contributing to them even though it was unknowingly.
One thing that most non-religious contributors would object to would be to religious proselytizing. The problem is that many charities are fronts for religious organizations for the purpose of proselytizing. An acquaintance at skeptics meetings was a homeless veteran. He has told us stories of "non-profit charities" who would make adherence to their religion as a condition for receiving their services. What non-religious contributor would want to lend their support for such odious activities?
I guess you would think that the Boy Scouts of America (BSA), Inc, would be a safe non-religious charity. After all, in all their public presentations they emphasize that they are "absolutely nonsectarian". That is a complete lie. In the many religious discrimination lawsuits, BSA lawyers repeatedly and emphatically proclaimed that the Boy Scouts of America, Inc, is a "secret religious organization."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by GDR, posted 04-16-2020 11:40 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by GDR, posted 04-17-2020 4:16 PM dwise1 has not replied

dwise1
Member
Posts: 5949
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 337 of 560 (875511)
04-27-2020 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 334 by GDR
04-27-2020 3:13 PM


Re: no rational argument ?
The big thing that we can learn from philosophy and theology is that in one thing there is consistency. All major religions and something that just about everyone knows deep down is true, is the Golden Rule.
[ List of examples for several different religions ]
. . .
None of this denies the fact that this belief is spread naturally within cultures, but it does show that it has been part of us from the beginning.
If something is present in all cultures and has been a part of us from the beginning, then we are the source of it. Something about human nature or group and social dynamics makes it necessary.
There is a highly successful game theory strategy called Tit for Tat (quote leaves out section titles):
quote:
[Tit-for-tat] is also a highly effective strategy in game theory. An agent using this strategy will first cooperate, then subsequently replicate an opponent's previous action. If the opponent previously was cooperative, the agent is cooperative. If not, the agent is not.
Tit-for-tat has been very successfully used as a strategy for the iterated prisoner's dilemma. The strategy was first introduced by Anatol Rapoport in Robert Axelrod's two tournaments, held around 1980. Notably, it was (on both occasions) both the simplest strategy and the most successful in direct competition.
An agent using this strategy will first cooperate, then subsequently replicate an opponent's previous action. If the opponent previously was cooperative, the agent is cooperative. If not, the agent is not. This is similar to reciprocal altruism in biology.
The success of the tit-for-tat strategy, which is largely cooperative despite that its name emphasizes an adversarial nature, took many by surprise. Arrayed against strategies produced by various teams it won in two competitions. After the first competition, new strategies formulated specifically to combat tit-for-tat failed due to their negative interactions with each other; a successful strategy other than tit-for-tat would have had to be formulated with both tit-for-tat and itself in mind.
This result may give insight into how groups of animals (and particularly human societies) have come to live in largely (or entirely) cooperative societies, rather than the individualistic "red in tooth and claw" way that might be expected from individuals engaged in a Hobbesian state of nature. This, and particularly its application to human society and politics, is the subject of Robert Axelrod's book The Evolution of Cooperation.
For reference, the prisoner's dilemma is a game in which the police offer two prisoners a reduced sentence if they betray the other:
quote:
Two members of a criminal gang are arrested and imprisoned. Each prisoner is in solitary confinement with no means of communicating with the other. The prosecutors lack sufficient evidence to convict the pair on the principal charge, but they have enough to convict both on a lesser charge. Simultaneously, the prosecutors offer each prisoner a bargain. Each prisoner is given the opportunity either to betray the other by testifying that the other committed the crime, or to cooperate with the other by remaining silent. The possible outcomes are:
  • If A and B each betray the other, each of them serves two years in prison
  • If A betrays B but B remains silent, A will be set free and B will serve three years in prison
  • If A remains silent but B betrays A, A will serve three years in prison and B will be set free
  • If A and B both remain silent, both of them will serve only one year in prison (on the lesser charge).
It is implied that the prisoners will have no opportunity to reward or punish their partner other than the prison sentences they get and that their decision will not affect their reputation in the future. Because betraying a partner offers a greater reward than cooperating with them, all purely rational self-interested prisoners will betray the other, meaning the only possible outcome for two purely rational prisoners is for them to betray each other. In reality, humans display a systemic bias towards cooperative behavior in this and similar games despite what is predicted by simple models of "rational" self-interested action. This bias towards cooperation has been known since the test was first conducted at RAND; the secretaries involved trusted each other and worked together for the best common outcome.
An extended "iterated" version of the game also exists. In this version, the classic game is played repeatedly between the same prisoners, who continuously have the opportunity to penalize the other for previous decisions. If the number of times the game will be played is known to the players, then (by backward induction) two classically rational players will betray each other repeatedly, for the same reasons as the single-shot variant. In an infinite or unknown length game there is no fixed optimum strategy, and prisoner's dilemma tournaments have been held to compete and test algorithms for such cases.
Tit-for-tat was used to play the iterated version of the game.
This would show how something like the Golden Rule, treating others fairly because you would want to be treated fairly, would arise naturally in human societies. And how empathy, an emotional basis for treating others fairly thus leading to morality, would become a part of our sociability.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 334 by GDR, posted 04-27-2020 3:13 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 343 by GDR, posted 04-27-2020 7:11 PM dwise1 has not replied

dwise1
Member
Posts: 5949
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 435 of 560 (875891)
05-09-2020 2:27 AM
Reply to: Message 433 by GDR
05-08-2020 6:54 PM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
My Christian beliefs flow from the idea that God is good, that mankind is called to do all that we can to alleviate suffering and that God resurrected Jesus confirming that we can understand God's nature by looking at what we know of the man Jesus. Everything else I believe about my faith flows from that.
All that considering that Trump is viewed as the Second Coming?
So very highly demonstrably false!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 433 by GDR, posted 05-08-2020 6:54 PM GDR has not replied

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