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Author Topic:   Hitch is dead
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 316 of 560 (875435)
04-26-2020 4:38 AM
Reply to: Message 313 by GDR
04-26-2020 3:04 AM


Re: no rational argument ?
GDR writes:
No it isn't. It is not a gap in scientific knowledge.
Given that science says that its a gap in it's knowledge and science doesn't as yet have have it figured out, it's fair to say it's gap in science's knowledge. Nobody in science is saying that it can't be explained naturally and is therefore a supernatural concern.
It is an explanation as to why the science is as it is.
It's an explanation of the state of the art.
Part of the problem is that our minds can only comprehend time as we experience it in one direction.
You're speaking for yourself, there are physicists and mathematicians that are currently thinking in 10, 11 and 26 dimensions.
String theory - Wikipedia
Ultimately there has to be a first cause that is uncaused.
Science says that this is not necessarily so.
It might be mindless or intelligent.
Or it might not exist or have existed but no longer does. You've just chosen the option you'd prefer to believe.
But if it does exist, it can't explain itself. The uncaused cause is just a linguistic trick; it explains nothing.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 313 by GDR, posted 04-26-2020 3:04 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 319 by GDR, posted 04-26-2020 1:07 PM Tangle has replied

Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 317 of 560 (875436)
04-26-2020 4:47 AM
Reply to: Message 314 by Phat
04-26-2020 3:19 AM


RE: Tangles Claim Regarding An Inconsistent and flawed God.
Phat writes:
I believe so. (freewill in heaven)
Then god doesn't need this entire human experiment does he? It's pointless - because we could all go directly there - and cruel.
There most certainly was a war in Heaven where Lucifer and 1/3 of the angelic hosts got booted out. (According to some popular mythos)
That's too silly to require comment.
Or do you mean to assume that you can make independent decisions in Heaven? Good question, that.
You argue that suffering is required because we have free will - the right to do harm if we choose. I say that if god can create heaven where there is no suffering and everything is perfect without free will why do we need it here?
Alternatively, if there is free will in heaven, then why do we need to be here and why is there no suffering and mortality heaven because of it?
(Not withstanding that the whole concept of free will is total bunkum anyway.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 314 by Phat, posted 04-26-2020 3:19 AM Phat has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 318 of 560 (875442)
04-26-2020 8:15 AM
Reply to: Message 315 by Phat
04-26-2020 3:23 AM


Re: no rational argument ?
Phat writes:
You claim the God you believe in to be unknowable, and you claim no way of knowing different until after you die. (If even then)
Only kinda sorta Phat, but I'll explain my position yet again.
No one has ever presented a model, method, mechanism, process or procedure that would all someone to know GOD or test to verify that what the think is GOD really is GOD. You haven't. GDR hasn't. Faith hasn't. But the evidence found in the Bible and every other religious text shows definitively that humans are very good at creating God(s) and god(s); the Bible is filled from beginning to end with descriptions of gods that are mutually exclusive. The God in Genesis 1 is entirely different than the God in Genesis 2&3.
Phat writes:
There has to be some reason that you reject the interactive God of popular mythos and belief.
Correct, there is zero evidence of that God's existence and the evidence shows again definitively that as the mythos changes so do the gods.
Phat writes:
Another part of your belief that differs from popular mythos is that you claim God if God exists as being *complete* rather than "Good".
Correct. I do not limit god or create a god in my image. I do not create a god that favors one creation over all others. I do NOT give god responsibility beyond believing that GOD if GOD exists is the creator of all, seen and unseen, not just the creator of what some humans consider "good".

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 315 by Phat, posted 04-26-2020 3:23 AM Phat has not replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 319 of 560 (875448)
04-26-2020 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 316 by Tangle
04-26-2020 4:38 AM


Re: no rational argument ?
Tangle writes:
Given that science says that its a gap in it's knowledge and science doesn't as yet have have it figured out, it's fair to say it's gap in science's knowledge. Nobody in science is saying that it can't be explained naturally and is therefore a supernatural concern.
Interestingly you've already agreed that an argument can be made for a deistic creator. Is that filling a gap?
Tangle writes:
It's an explanation of the state of the art.
Science and philosophy answer different questions and come to the answers differently.
Tangle writes:
Or it might not exist or have existed but no longer does. You've just chosen the option you'd prefer to believe.
You have also chosen the option that you prefer. I didn't just come to my conclusions over night, (I know you din't either) and my theological views have evolved over time years which is a continuing process.
Tangle writes:
You're speaking for yourself, there are physicists and mathematicians that are currently thinking in 10, 11 and 26 dimensions.
That doesn't mean that they can comprehend an experience of time in more than one direction. That is a mathematical theory. Apparently the math tells us that time should be symmetrical but we don't experience it that way. (Wish we did and I'd go back to being 19 again. )
Interestingly enough maybe someday science will discover God's heavenly universe. This is the headline from Scientific American a few years back.
quote:
Hidden Worlds of Dark Matter - An Entire Universe May Be Interwoven With Our Own.
Then in the lead into the story it says this: "A shadow cosmos, woven silently into our own, may have its own rich inner life".

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 316 by Tangle, posted 04-26-2020 4:38 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 320 by Tangle, posted 04-26-2020 2:16 PM GDR has replied

Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 320 of 560 (875450)
04-26-2020 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 319 by GDR
04-26-2020 1:07 PM


Re: no rational argument ?
GDR writes:
Interestingly you've already agreed that an argument can be made for a deistic creator. Is that filling a gap?
I say that the deistic position can't be ruled out. That's because an invisible, undetectable god that does not intervene with our universe is impossible to say anything about at all. He has the same effect on us as if he didn't exist. Funny that. But I'm forced to say the same about unicorns - logically I can't rule them out, but I still say they don't exist. Balance of probabilities and all that.
Science and philosophy answer different questions and come to the answers differently.
The last time I read any philosophy it had not answered the question of gods' existence. Philosophy is just a thinkpiece. If you want to *know* something you need evidence.
You have also chosen the option that you prefer. I didn't just come to my conclusions over night,th (I know you din't either) and my theological views have evolved over time years which is a continuing process.
I've followed the evidence where it lead me.
I would have really preferred the answer that there was a loving god looking after me and that so long as I lead a good life and said the right prayers at the right time with the proper amount of kneeling and standing and sitting down, I'd live forever happily ever after surrounded by my loved ones.
Can you think of any reason why I would choose the other path?
The other difference between us is that I'll change my mind in a heart beat if anything resembling evidence can be found. Absolutely nothing will change your mind.
That is a mathematical theory.
No shit!
Interestingly enough maybe someday science will discover God's heavenly universe. This is the headline from Scientific American a few years back.
Hidden Worlds of Dark Matter - An Entire Universe May Be Interwoven With Our Own.
Then in the lead into the story it says this: "A shadow cosmos, woven silently into our own, may have its own rich inner life".
Oh please don't tell us that dark matter is where god is hiding. It would hurt too much.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 319 by GDR, posted 04-26-2020 1:07 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 322 by GDR, posted 04-26-2020 6:14 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 330 by Phat, posted 04-27-2020 9:46 AM Tangle has replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 321 of 560 (875451)
04-26-2020 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by dwise1
05-09-2019 10:45 PM


Rereading earlier replies in this thread
dwise1 writes:
What religion does, especially for "true Christians", is lock them into a rules-based morality. God gave us these rules and we are responsible to God to obey those rules. Doesn't matter whether those rules cause harm to others, we must obey them at all cost and whatever happens is God's Will, right? And if you interpret that God-given Absolute Morality as telling you to do bad things to others, then that's what you feel responsible to God to do.
Rethinking about the basic differences in our respective thought processes. For believers, the evidence does not have to be (indeed likely is not) "evident" to whosoever studies it.
One side lays responsibility on the human-animal itself, individually and collectively. The other side accepts and then needs the reality of a higher power Who cares about us both individually and collectively. This is scriptural, however, and arguably not fantasy-based. What I need to examine is why I would never accept the other side's point of view while, as Tangle claims, they would in fact accept mine. I personally think many of them wouldnt. They already *know* too much about the character in the book.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by dwise1, posted 05-09-2019 10:45 PM dwise1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 339 by ringo, posted 04-27-2020 6:13 PM Phat has replied
 Message 347 by Stile, posted 04-28-2020 9:19 AM Phat has replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 322 of 560 (875458)
04-26-2020 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 320 by Tangle
04-26-2020 2:16 PM


Re: no rational argument ?
Tangle writes:
Philosophy is just a thinkpiece. If you want to *know* something you need evidence.
Yes, that is the cornerstone of scientism or materialism. It discounts any subjective evidence from philosophy or theology.
Tangle writes:
I've followed the evidence where it lead me.
I would have really preferred the answer that there was a loving god looking after me and that so long as I lead a good life and said the right prayers at the right time with the proper amount of kneeling and standing and sitting down, I'd live forever happily ever after surrounded by my loved ones.
Can you think of any reason why I would choose the other path?
I have heard and read a number of atheists who reject the idea of there being a power beyond them that actually has a call on their lives, and others who have rejected any theism as they can't accept an intelligence greater than their own. It seems to be often a pride thing. One example:
quote:
I want atheism to be true and am made uneasy by the fact that some of the most intelligent and well-informed people I know are religious believers. It isn’t just that I don’t believe in God and, naturally, hope that I’m right in my belief. It’s that I hope there is no God! I don’t want there to be a God; I don’t want the universe to be like that.(The Last Word by Thomas Nagel, Oxford University Press: 1997)
I certainly can't speak for you of for any broad group of atheists but those are a couple of examples.
Tangle writes:
The other difference between us is that I'll change my mind in a heart beat if anything resembling evidence can be found. Absolutely nothing will change your mind.
However, it seems as I read you that the only thing that would change your mind is scientific evidence as you apparently reject either philosophical or theological evidence. There is no scientific evidence for Christianity. There is recorded historical evidence for it but you have rejected that.
Tangle writes:
Oh please don't tell us that dark matter is where god is hiding. It would hurt too much.
You even seem to lack faith in where science might lead us.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 320 by Tangle, posted 04-26-2020 2:16 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 323 by kjsimons, posted 04-26-2020 8:11 PM GDR has replied
 Message 327 by Tangle, posted 04-27-2020 3:05 AM GDR has replied

kjsimons
Member
Posts: 821
From: Orlando,FL
Joined: 06-17-2003
Member Rating: 6.7


(1)
Message 323 of 560 (875461)
04-26-2020 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 322 by GDR
04-26-2020 6:14 PM


Re: no rational argument ?
"subjective evidence" = not evidence
Real evidence is not subjective.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 322 by GDR, posted 04-26-2020 6:14 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 324 by GDR, posted 04-26-2020 9:03 PM kjsimons has not replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 324 of 560 (875462)
04-26-2020 9:03 PM
Reply to: Message 323 by kjsimons
04-26-2020 8:11 PM


Re: no rational argument ?
Dictionary Definition
quote:
Subjective evidence refers to evidence that one cannot evaluate. One must simply accept what the person says or reject it. Testimony of the parties to a contract is subjective evidence.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 323 by kjsimons, posted 04-26-2020 8:11 PM kjsimons has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 325 by jar, posted 04-26-2020 9:19 PM GDR has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 325 of 560 (875463)
04-26-2020 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 324 by GDR
04-26-2020 9:03 PM


Re: no rational argument ?
But Wait...There's more.
You did not post the full definition or point out that it is merely a legal definition rather than a scientific definition.
The rest of that definition is:
Subjective evidence means that testimony from the claimant, corroborated by his/her family and friends, as to whether a specific impairment actually affects the claimant to such an extent as to be disabling.
So it refers to opinions and not actual facts.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 324 by GDR, posted 04-26-2020 9:03 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 326 by GDR, posted 04-27-2020 2:04 AM jar has not replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 326 of 560 (875466)
04-27-2020 2:04 AM
Reply to: Message 325 by jar
04-26-2020 9:19 PM


Re: no rational argument ?
If it was a known fact it wouldn't be subjective.
The Bible is evidence for Christianity.
It is objective in that we know it exists.
It is subjective as to how we understand it.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 325 by jar, posted 04-26-2020 9:19 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 340 by ringo, posted 04-27-2020 6:19 PM GDR has replied

Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 327 of 560 (875468)
04-27-2020 3:05 AM
Reply to: Message 322 by GDR
04-26-2020 6:14 PM


Re: no rational argument ?
GDR writes:
Yes, that is the cornerstone of scientism or materialism.
Let's call it what it is eh? science.
It discounts any subjective evidence from philosophy or theology.
It doesn't discount any evidence. You're confused about what evidence it. The best philosophy can do in this area is create thought experiments, it can't prove anything. I note that you didn't comment on the quite obvious fact that philosophy has not solved this problem after thousands of years of trying.
Science actually answers things. It's its turn now.
I have heard and read a number of atheists who reject the idea of there being a power beyond them that actually has a call on their lives, and others who have rejected any theism as they can't accept an intelligence greater than their own. It seems to be often a pride thing. One example:
Hitch - the initial subject of this thread - was one of them. But that because he saw the Christian god as an evil despot running an immoral dictatorship. Who would want to be part of that?
It all depends on the sort of god you're not believing in ... ! your lovely kind god - a very modern invention - doesn't sound so bad.
However, it seems as I read you that the only thing that would change your mind is scientific evidence as you apparently reject either philosophical or theological evidence.
There is no evidence from philosophy, just argument and the arguments are both for and against with no possible way of resolving them.
There is recorded historical evidence for it but you have rejected that.
There are no reliable historical records of the events written in the bible. That subject has been done to death. It's even doubtful whether Jesus existed at all let alone did the things that the anonymous authors that never even met him wrote about. The entire edifice is a fiction created for political reasons. It's not anything a thinking person should build their lives around.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 322 by GDR, posted 04-26-2020 6:14 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 328 by Phat, posted 04-27-2020 9:24 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 329 by Phat, posted 04-27-2020 9:27 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 334 by GDR, posted 04-27-2020 3:13 PM Tangle has replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 328 of 560 (875476)
04-27-2020 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 327 by Tangle
04-27-2020 3:05 AM


Re: no rational argument ?
Tangle writes:
Hitch - the initial subject of this thread - was one of them. But that because he saw the Christian god as an evil despot running an immoral dictatorship. Who would want to be part of that?
It all depends on the sort of god you're not believing in ...! your lovely kind god - a very modern invention - doesn't sound so bad.
As long as we are talking belief, the "lovely and kind God" is the Prince of this world--satan himself. It is he who is attempting to be an evil despot clouding human thinking and running an immoral enterprise. As long as the church takes a stand to oppose him, he will never win over the hearts and minds of a general population. It may well be that he tries to win you over not through religious traditions, but through what CS Lewis called "his neatest trick": Convincing you that neither he nor God exists. But of course, I will be the one who gets called deluded. Clinging to Bronze Age myths and apologetic "fantasies". The great irony of all of this is that supposed modern-day arguments are rational on the surface yet delusional at their very core, assuming satans desired conclusion for themselves and all of us. Good morning, by the way, Tangle. How is life across the pond?

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 327 by Tangle, posted 04-27-2020 3:05 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 331 by Tangle, posted 04-27-2020 10:44 AM Phat has not replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 329 of 560 (875477)
04-27-2020 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 327 by Tangle
04-27-2020 3:05 AM


Re: no rational argument ?
It's even doubtful whether Jesus existed at all let alone did the things that the anonymous authors that never even met him wrote about.
Then how is it that we see demons getting cast out of people? How is it that we ourselves become transformed through the renewing of our minds? I already know your answer.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 327 by Tangle, posted 04-27-2020 3:05 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 332 by Tangle, posted 04-27-2020 10:47 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 330 of 560 (875483)
04-27-2020 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 320 by Tangle
04-26-2020 2:16 PM


Re: no rational argument ?
Tangle, to GDR writes:
Oh please don't tell us that dark matter is where god is hiding. It would hurt too much.
For you, God is hiding in your unbelief. The only reason He is hidden is that you created the shadows yourself.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 320 by Tangle, posted 04-26-2020 2:16 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 333 by Tangle, posted 04-27-2020 10:50 AM Phat has replied

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