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GDR
Member
Posts: 5372
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 436 of 520 (875902)
05-09-2020 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 434 by Tangle
05-09-2020 2:15 AM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
Tangle writes:

And for the life of me I can't understand how you can believe all that given the utter craziness and total implausibility of the idea. It's baffling.

Frankly, it is just as baffling to me that there are those like yourself that are materialists. I can't comprehend the belief that life ultimately has only mindless origins. I can't muster up that kind of faith.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 434 by Tangle, posted 05-09-2020 2:15 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 437 by PaulK, posted 05-09-2020 11:32 AM GDR has not yet responded
 Message 438 by Tangle, posted 05-09-2020 12:32 PM GDR has responded
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 16184
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 437 of 520 (875903)
05-09-2020 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 436 by GDR
05-09-2020 11:15 AM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
quote:
I can't comprehend the belief that life ultimately has only mindless origins. I can't muster up that kind of faith.

Yet you have the faith to believe that accounts of car accidents are routinely confused about the location - by about a 100 miles.

Of course it isn’t about faith. That’s why you have no sensible objection to the idea. That’s just the sort of inversion Faith so loves.

Edited by PaulK, : Clarified last sentence


This message is a reply to:
 Message 436 by GDR, posted 05-09-2020 11:15 AM GDR has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7614
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 438 of 520 (875905)
05-09-2020 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 436 by GDR
05-09-2020 11:15 AM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
GDR writes:

Frankly, it is just as baffling to me that there are those like yourself that are materialists. I can't comprehend the belief that life ultimately has only mindless origins. I can't muster up that kind of faith.

When I wrote that I also mentally made a note of your reply. I said to myself 'I just know he's going to create an equivalence. He's going to claim that I believe just as much in the other thing.

This is despite years of attempting to show you that our positions are entirely different; not just equal and opposite.

Not believing in god is NOT a belief in something else; it's just a non-belief in god. End. Maybe there is a god, who knows? But that has nothing to do with a belief in materialism. Or a belief in theism of whatever flavour. We both accept materialism or naturalism or whatever you want to call it because it's not a belief, it's evidenced facts. How far back we can take it is just a matter for how far science can go. We've only just started.

My position on *your* god is not the same as on *a* god. What I'm exasperated about is that we have a stack of actual evidence that tells us that the story you believe is just hokum. Yet you swallow it whole knowing how impossibly unlikely it is to be true. Just by reading your book it shows how questionable it all is. Any reasonable person would treat the entire thing with utmost scepticism.

My postion on your god is rational; yours is irrational. The two positions are not equivalent.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 436 by GDR, posted 05-09-2020 11:15 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 439 by GDR, posted 05-09-2020 1:06 PM Tangle has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5372
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 439 of 520 (875906)
05-09-2020 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 438 by Tangle
05-09-2020 12:32 PM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
Tangle writes:

Not believing in god is NOT a belief in something else; it's just a non-belief in god. End. Maybe there is a god, who knows?

Not believing in materialism is NOT a belief in something else; it is just a non-belief in materialsim. Maybe there isn't a god, who knows?

Tangle writes:

We both accept materialism or naturalism or whatever you want to call it because it's not a belief, it's evidenced facts. How far back we can take it is just a matter for how far science can go. We've only just started.

Here is the definition for materialism.

quote:
the doctrine that nothing exists except matter and its movements and modifications.

It isn't a matter of how far back you go. The doctrine, (and all doctrine requires belief), is that there is only matter.

Tangle writes:

My position on *your* god is not the same as on *a* god. What I'm exasperated about is that we have a stack of actual evidence that tells us that the story you believe is just hokum. Yet you swallow it whole knowing how impossibly unlikely it is to be true. Just by reading your book it shows how questionable it all is. Any reasonable person would treat the entire thing with utmost scepticism.

I was simply arguing for a theistic position, and yes my personal beliefs extend to Christianity. Yes, there are discrepancies in the detail of the NT accounts but just as you contend that the resurrection is impossibly unlikely to be true I contend that the rise of Christian belief is highly unlikely to be true if the resurrection isn't historical truth. However, in the post you responded to I only was talking about materialism as opposed to theism.

Tangle writes:

My postion on your god is rational; yours is irrational. The two positions are not equivalent.

IMHO the materialist position is irrational.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 438 by Tangle, posted 05-09-2020 12:32 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 440 by Tangle, posted 05-09-2020 2:26 PM GDR has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7614
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 440 of 520 (875909)
05-09-2020 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 439 by GDR
05-09-2020 1:06 PM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
GDR writes:

IMHO the materialist position is irrational.

I'm going to agree with you here - not just for the sake of argument but because it's true. Anything accepted by belief is irrational and as it can't be totally ruled out, regardless of how improbable, it's simply not possible to say that ALL there is is material. We can conclude it from the evidence, but just as we can't disprove leprechauns we can't disprove a deistic god.

But the point that you can't and/or refuse to get is that that is NOT true of a theism. Ignoring all the (lack of) historical evidence and simple logic that shows beyond reasonable doubt that biblical events are fiction, if there was a god intervening in our lives we'd know about it.

There is no equivalence in our positions - try to get your head round it. Believe what the hell you like but don't believe that a disbelief in theism is irrational; it's not, it's easily demonstrated by evidence, facts and logic.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 439 by GDR, posted 05-09-2020 1:06 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 441 by Phat, posted 05-09-2020 2:55 PM Tangle has responded
 Message 443 by GDR, posted 05-09-2020 3:22 PM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 452 by GDR, posted 05-09-2020 4:44 PM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13914
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 441 of 520 (875910)
05-09-2020 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 440 by Tangle
05-09-2020 2:26 PM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
Tangle writes:

Anything accepted by belief is irrational and as it can't be totally ruled out, regardless of how improbable, it's simply not possible to say that ALL there is is material. We can conclude it from the evidence, but just as we can't disprove leprechauns we can't disprove a deistic god.

But the point that you can't and/or refuse to get is that that is NOT true of atheism. Ignoring all the (lack of) historical evidence and simple logic that shows beyond a reasonable doubt that biblical events are fiction if there was a God intervening in our lives we'd know about it.

Not necessarily. Why must the presence of this God be obvious (equally) to every sentient creature? The perception of absence is due entirely to lack of evidence, but evidence is not (or should not) be the only standard. For most of my life, I knew about God, the character in the book, and subject of mythos. I knew of other magical human-created legends as well. The day that I publically confessed and surrendered stands out to this day as a day that impacted me and a day in which I truly felt, believed, and daresay *knew* that I had met God. A couple of years later, my one memorable encounter with something unexplained, voices out of nowhere, no evidence of trickery or deception, hair standing on end and a keen awareness of what I heard(also heard by 3 others who would tell you the same story to this day) confirmed to me that there was a supernatural realm. (or at the very least an unexplained event.) Since then, I have heard similar stories. You wont find this on You Tube. Now why is that?

“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 440 by Tangle, posted 05-09-2020 2:26 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 446 by Tangle, posted 05-09-2020 4:02 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13914
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 442 of 520 (875911)
05-09-2020 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 436 by GDR
05-09-2020 11:15 AM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
Tangle, to GDR writes:

And for the life of me I can't understand how you can believe all that given the utter craziness and total implausibility of the idea.

When I first heard voices that came not from any human or hidden device (after later further verification) I too was baffled. Still am. The difference between me and you is you would keep looking for evidence until the cows came home, never allowing yourself to accept the weakness of surrendering to a belief. Perhaps that is a strength, i don't know.

“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 436 by GDR, posted 05-09-2020 11:15 AM GDR has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5372
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 443 of 520 (875912)
05-09-2020 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 440 by Tangle
05-09-2020 2:26 PM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
Tangle writes:

I'm going to agree with you here - not just for the sake of argument but because it's true. Anything accepted by belief is irrational and as it can't be totally ruled out, regardless of how improbable, it's simply not possible to say that ALL there is is material.

OK then we have reached one point of agreement. Yeh!!

Tangle writes:

..... but just as we can't disprove leprechauns we can't disprove a deistic god.

That is not a rational comparison. There is no evidence for leprechauns but there is evidence for at least a deistic god. The fact that life exists at all is evidence for at least a deistic god. Of course I'd go further and say that the fact that there is not only life, but sentient life is strong evidence for at least a deistic god.

If we take that evidence and conclude that we are created by the intelligence of that deistic god then we are in a position to consider a theistic god. If we are the result of intelligence then it seems reasonable to consider that our intelligence is somehow an extension of the original intelligence that is responsible for life. When we as humans create something with intention we do so with a purpose in mind. By extension then I suggest that it is reasonable to conclude that we were created for a purpose. That being the case then the idea that a deistic god who created us and then ignored us isn't as reasonable as a belief theistic god who created us and is still involved with what he/she has created.

I have now IMHO given a rational reason to believe in a theistic god. I'm not saying that it is conclusive but only that it is reasonable.

As you know I go a step further though. If then, we have an intelligent theistic god that has created life with a purpose then I don't see it as a stretch to accept the concept of resurrection into a new and renewed form of existence. The resurrection if nothing else is evidence that Jesus' life based on unconditional love, is evidence of the life that we are called to. Also the resurrection is evidence that the purpose for our lives extends beyond the life that we know. What that life will be like is essentially a mystery but it appears that unconditional love will be a basic ingredient of it.

Tangle writes:

if there was a god intervening in our lives we'd know about it.

If the heart and mind of God is interwoven with our consciousness then it is simply part of our being and would be invisible to us.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 440 by Tangle, posted 05-09-2020 2:26 PM Tangle has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 444 by kjsimons, posted 05-09-2020 3:43 PM GDR has responded
 Message 445 by DrJones*, posted 05-09-2020 3:49 PM GDR has responded

  
kjsimons
Member
Posts: 684
From: Orlando,FL
Joined: 06-17-2003


Message 444 of 520 (875913)
05-09-2020 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 443 by GDR
05-09-2020 3:22 PM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
GDR writes:

There is no evidence for leprechauns but there is evidence for at least a deistic god. The fact that life exists at all is evidence for at least a deistic god.

How is this evidence for a god at all? Please explain as it is not obvious to me that this would be evidence of a god existing.

Edited by kjsimons, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 443 by GDR, posted 05-09-2020 3:22 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 447 by GDR, posted 05-09-2020 4:05 PM kjsimons has responded

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2096
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 445 of 520 (875914)
05-09-2020 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 443 by GDR
05-09-2020 3:22 PM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
There is no evidence for leprechauns but there is evidence for at least a deistic god. The fact that life exists at all is evidence for at least a deistic god.

nope, Leprechauns created life

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 443 by GDR, posted 05-09-2020 3:22 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 7614
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 446 of 520 (875915)
05-09-2020 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 441 by Phat
05-09-2020 2:55 PM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
Phat writes:

Not necessarily. Why must the presence of this God be obvious (equally) to every sentient creature?

Fairness? After all, you'd have us believe that this is a high stakes game, involving our everlasting souls. Maybe prejudice and bias is inappropriate in those circumstances?

The perception of absence is due entirely to lack of evidence, but evidence is not (or should not) be the only standard.

There is no other standard is there? Nothing but “I believe” which has been proven hopeless at explaining anything. Always.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 441 by Phat, posted 05-09-2020 2:55 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5372
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 447 of 520 (875916)
05-09-2020 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 444 by kjsimons
05-09-2020 3:43 PM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
kjsimons writes:

How is this evidence for a god at all? Please explain as it is not obvious to me that this would be evidence of a god existing.

Life exists and there has to be an underlying cause, whether it is by chance through mindless processes or intelligence. As we are sentient beings then I contend that the reason that life exists is more likely to be intelligent than mindless. Life itself is evidence from which we draw subjective conclusions.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 444 by kjsimons, posted 05-09-2020 3:43 PM kjsimons has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 449 by kjsimons, posted 05-09-2020 4:12 PM GDR has responded
 Message 450 by jar, posted 05-09-2020 4:14 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5372
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 448 of 520 (875917)
05-09-2020 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 445 by DrJones*
05-09-2020 3:49 PM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
DrJones writes:

Nope, Leprechauns created life.

Fair enough, but that just means that god is a leprechaun.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 445 by DrJones*, posted 05-09-2020 3:49 PM DrJones* has not yet responded

  
kjsimons
Member
Posts: 684
From: Orlando,FL
Joined: 06-17-2003


(1)
Message 449 of 520 (875919)
05-09-2020 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 447 by GDR
05-09-2020 4:05 PM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
GDR writes:

Life exists and there has to be an underlying cause, ...

That life exists is just evidence that life exists, no more, no less. You seem to need to have there be a underlying cause for life's existence, that is on you and not an actual requirement.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 447 by GDR, posted 05-09-2020 4:05 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 463 by kjsimons, posted 05-09-2020 9:38 PM kjsimons has not yet responded
 Message 465 by GDR, posted 05-10-2020 2:21 AM kjsimons has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32504
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 450 of 520 (875920)
05-09-2020 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 447 by GDR
05-09-2020 4:05 PM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
GDR writes:

Life exists and there has to be an underlying cause, whether it is by chance through mindless processes or intelligence. As we are sentient beings then I contend that the reason that life exists is more likely to be intelligent than mindless.

Sorry but that makes no sense at all. First, almost all life is mindless. The fact the we might be sentient beings is a data point so minor, so irrelevant to live now or at any time in the past that it cannot be evidence of anything beyond the fact that all known God(s) and god(s) have been created by sentient beings in the image of sentient beings.

If sentience is your reason to think there was an intelligent cause wouldn't the fact that almost all life at all times that life has existed on the planet both now and in the past is and has been not sentient but rather mindless be stronger evidence that the cause was mindless?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 447 by GDR, posted 05-09-2020 4:05 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
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