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Author Topic:   Hitch is dead
ringo
Member
Posts: 18100
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 466 of 520 (875952)
05-10-2020 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 431 by GDR
05-08-2020 4:55 PM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
GDR writes:

I start with the belief that God's nature can be seen perfectly embodied by Jesus. So when I look at the accounts of God ordering genocide and public stoning I can see that it is consistently at odds with what we see in the teachings of Jesus, therefore I reject them.


You're thinking backwards, from the conclusion you want. The Bible tells you that Jesus is good and God can often be cruel. Therefore, Jesus is clearly not the perfect embodiment of God.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 431 by GDR, posted 05-08-2020 4:55 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 468 by GDR, posted 05-10-2020 1:49 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18100
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 467 of 520 (875954)
05-10-2020 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 451 by LamarkNewAge
05-09-2020 4:34 PM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
LamarkNewAge writes:

Understand the time difference between Polycarp and Irenaeus .


No need to. I don't take either one of them seriously.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 451 by LamarkNewAge, posted 05-09-2020 4:34 PM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5372
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 468 of 520 (875955)
05-10-2020 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 466 by ringo
05-10-2020 1:32 PM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
ringo writes:

You're thinking backwards, from the conclusion you want. The Bible tells you that Jesus is good and God can often be cruel. Therefore, Jesus is clearly not the perfect embodiment of God.

I have often said to Faith, (I hope she gets allowed back), is that it is Christianity not Bibleianity. My faith is based on Jesus although much of what I understand about Jesus is from a Bible compiled by hundreds of fallible human beings over hundreds of years.

My views of the nature of God is that in humans, and even in other creatures, we see a basic tug on our consciousness where we understand that we really should love others as we love ourselves even though we usually succumb to being primarily concerned with number one. This is consistent with Jesus saying the theme of the whole NT that all of the laws hang on the premise of self giving love.

So. like I said earlier when the Bible says that God committed and commanded genocide, I don't necessarily disagree with the historicity of the event, but I do disagree with the idea that it was divinely ordered or committed.

Succinctly, I don't start with the Bible, I start with Jesus when I want to understand the nature of God, so I contend that I don't have it backwards.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 466 by ringo, posted 05-10-2020 1:32 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 469 by ringo, posted 05-10-2020 2:00 PM GDR has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18100
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 469 of 520 (875956)
05-10-2020 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 468 by GDR
05-10-2020 1:49 PM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
GDR writes:

I have often said to Faith, (I hope she gets allowed back), is that it is Christianity not Bibleianity. My faith is based on Jesus....


I have more respect for Faith's version than I do for your made-up version. You and Phat clearly want a cutesy teddy bear of a God. You have no interest in the "God that is" (if there is one). You don't accept God as He is (if He is). You create Him in the image you want to see.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 468 by GDR, posted 05-10-2020 1:49 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 470 by Phat, posted 05-10-2020 2:55 PM ringo has responded
 Message 471 by GDR, posted 05-10-2020 4:56 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13920
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 470 of 520 (875959)
05-10-2020 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 469 by ringo
05-10-2020 2:00 PM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
ringo writes:

You and Phat clearly want a cutesy teddy bear of a God. You have no interest in the "God that is" (if there is one).

Not so. I prefer a relationship (or at least an open line) to the God W\ho Is. And what I go by is what impressions I get which I discern come from Him. God is not simply cute. I don't limit Him to some ancient despot described in a book, either. God is as current as the latest news.

I can't deny what I have experienced (without questioning my sanity) and I have even gone so far as to do that. This is going to be an ongoing issue in society for the next twenty years. Not all Christians will be as some are, but unfortunately, the loudest bleaters will get the most press and reflect on the rest of us negatively to a scientific, humanist, and (they think) reality-based world view.
The belief that I have that will annoy people the most is that not only is Jesus necessary for life, empathy, and love to even exist but that He will judge the humanists for professing themselves to be wise when they are, in fact off the mark. (no pun intended )


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 469 by ringo, posted 05-10-2020 2:00 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 473 by ringo, posted 05-11-2020 12:47 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 475 by Stile, posted 05-11-2020 4:11 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5372
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 471 of 520 (875975)
05-10-2020 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 469 by ringo
05-10-2020 2:00 PM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
ringo writes:

I have more respect for Faith's version than I do for your made-up version. You and Phat clearly want a cutesy teddy bear of a God. You have no interest in the "God that is" (if there is one). You don't accept God as He is (if He is). You create Him in the image you want to see.

First off, it isn't made up. It is consistent with middle of the road Anglicanism, and for that matter it is Biblical if you don't try and turn the Bible into something essentially dictated by God.

Also, you patronizingly call it cutesy. It seems that you insist that God has to be a genocidal tyrant. Fine if that is what you believe then so be it.

Jesus was far from cutesy. With a small group of guys from the peasant class he stood up to everyone in power within his culture whether it was in the Temple or in the palaces. He went up against the Levites, the Pharisees, the Herodians and the Romans.

On faith and guts Jesus went into Jerusalem, claiming His messiahship, understanding that it would in all probability mean a slow, torturous humiliating death. He did all this with the belief, that He gained through study and prayer, that through doing this God would in some way vindicate His life, message and death.

Not really cutesy.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 469 by ringo, posted 05-10-2020 2:00 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 472 by ringo, posted 05-11-2020 12:36 PM GDR has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18100
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 472 of 520 (875999)
05-11-2020 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 471 by GDR
05-10-2020 4:56 PM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
GDR writes:

First off, it isn't made up. It is consistent with middle of the road Anglicanism...


That doesn't preclude it from being made up. Middle-of-the-road Mormonism is made up, isn't it?

GDR writes:

... and for that matter it is Biblical if you don't try and turn the Bible into something essentially dictated by God.


In other words, it's Biblical if you make up your own Bible, ignoring the parts of the actual Bible that you don't like.

GDR writes:

It seems that you insist that God has to be a genocidal tyrant.


I'm just going by YOUR source, which says He is.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 471 by GDR, posted 05-10-2020 4:56 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 474 by GDR, posted 05-11-2020 4:06 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18100
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 473 of 520 (876000)
05-11-2020 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 470 by Phat
05-10-2020 2:55 PM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
Phat writes:

I prefer a relationship (or at least an open line) to the God W\ho Is.


But you make up a cute and cuddly one.

Why would the creator of all things seen and unseen have any interest in you? Even much lesser beings such as your President or your Governor or your Mayor have no interest in a relationship with you. The desire for relationship is strictly one-sided.

Phat writes:

I don't limit Him to some ancient despot described in a book, either.


You make Him up instead.

Phat writes:

I can't deny what I have experienced (without questioning my sanity) and I have even gone so far as to do that.


That isn't going very far at all. Questioning your own experiences, your own observations and your own conclusions is only step one. You need to be a lot harder on yourself than that.

Phat writes:

The belief that I have that will annoy people the most is that not only is Jesus necessary for life, empathy, and love to even exist but that He will judge the humanists for professing themselves to be wise when they are, in fact off the mark.


That isn't annoying. It's laughable. It's hubris.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 470 by Phat, posted 05-10-2020 2:55 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5372
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 474 of 520 (876006)
05-11-2020 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 472 by ringo
05-11-2020 12:36 PM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
ringo writes:

That doesn't preclude it from being made up.

In one very real sense it is made up and I have no doubt that some of what I believe is wrong. It is faith and belief. Christianity is a man made religion that is built around the belief that Jesus as a Jew was resurrected by God.

It then takes accounts from both oral and written sources from those who were apostles or disciples of Jesus during His ministry. The Bible represents a progressive understanding of the nature of God, within a Jewish context, as compiled by fallible humans.

ringo writes:

In other words, it's Biblical if you make up your own Bible, ignoring the parts of the actual Bible that you don't like.

You want it both ways. You want to disparage Faith for a inerrant view of Scripture and then at the same time disparage my belief in a Bible written by imperfect humans.

GDR writes:

It seems that you insist that God has to be a genocidal tyrant.

ringo writes:

I'm just going by YOUR source, which says He is.

There are 66 books in the Bible from hundreds of sources over hundreds of years, and you want to insist that I give them all equal credibility.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 472 by ringo, posted 05-11-2020 12:36 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 493 by ringo, posted 05-12-2020 7:42 PM GDR has responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3943
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 475 of 520 (876008)
05-11-2020 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 470 by Phat
05-10-2020 2:55 PM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
Phat writes:

The belief that I have that will annoy people the most is that not only is Jesus necessary for life, empathy, and love to even exist but that He will judge the humanists for professing themselves to be wise when they are, in fact off the mark. (no pun intended)

1. Following evidence is done because we know humans are stupid.
If we were wise - we wouldn't need evidence to show us what happens in this reality, we would already know it.
Everyone who follows the evidence is admitting that we are not wise - we are stupid and make stupid human mistakes - therefore, we need to follow evidence to be able to trust our knowledge about reality. Because, so far, evidence has shown us that it's the best method we are aware of to identify aspects of reality.

But, because we're stupid, we're completely open to any better "knowledge" systems.
All you have to do is beat evidence's track record.
If you can't do that, then, obviously, whatever you have is not "better."

It should be noted that you, yourself, also follow evidence for almost everything you do.
I take it you look both ways before crossing a street? Just like the rest of us stupid, mistake-prone humans.

2. You seem to be the only one professing to be wise and know "what is necessary" and "who will be judged" just because you know it - because Phat is so wise as to know what God is saying?

It's hypocritical.
Which can be annoying, but is mostly just sad.

Do you not understand that such a statement in itself is claiming to be the wisest of all - claiming to know the mind of God Himself without any possibility of human error?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 470 by Phat, posted 05-10-2020 2:55 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3943
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 476 of 520 (876011)
05-11-2020 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 400 by GDR
05-05-2020 12:44 PM


Re: It is about sacrificial love
GDR writes:

Most of what Jesus taught was counter-cultural.

Was it?
I thought it's one of your major points that "the golden rule" (which is, really... "most of what Jesus taught...") is pretty much present in all cultures?

There were no atheists in their day.

I doubt that.

The History of Atheism wiki says "Philosophical atheist thought began to appear in Europe and Asia in the sixth or fifth century BCE."

Just because something isn't popular - doesn't mean it didn't exist.

As far as the incentive to raise the funds go I think that we can simply look at the life style of Paul. He moved around constantly, was driven out of many communities with his life often being threatened, as while as being alienated from the culture and beliefs that he had grown up with and had been strongly committed to.

Yet he did get food and water and shelter by "followers" everywhere he went.
Sounds like incentive to me.
As much incentive as anyone ever has... travel, accommodations, food, friends...

I never said they were all instant sultans.

I understand you don't want them to have any other incentive - that's clear.
And I'm also not saying I know what their incentive was.

But to say that you do know exactly what their incentive was, for sure, and that no other incentive could possibly exist - that's also clearly false.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 400 by GDR, posted 05-05-2020 12:44 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 478 by GDR, posted 05-11-2020 5:16 PM Stile has responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3943
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 477 of 520 (876014)
05-11-2020 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 403 by Phat
05-05-2020 1:15 PM


Re: Plenty to gain
Phat writes:

he failures of human morality exist in all cultures and at all times.

I'm glad you agree with me - this is what I was saying.

If you want to stay consistent in your acknowledgment of the failures of human morality, you would do well to look the gift horse of global humanism in the mouth and see it for what it really is.

You seem to suggest that I think Global Humanism is immune to the failures of human morality?
Why would you think that?

I'm the one saying the failures of human morality exist everywhere...

The rest of your post is... really strange, and seemingly irrelevant. Let me know if the Roman Catholic Church refuses to name another Pope after Francis. Until then... the prophecy of "only two more popes after JPII" is equivalent to "there will be thousands more popes after JPII."

But then, in order to do that you would have to acknowledge that humanity will never move forward without Holy Communion with God (through Jesus) and this is the sticking point that believers and non-believers will; forever remain stuck at.

I think humanity can easily move forward with or without Holy Communion with God (through Jesus.)
It doesn't seem to add much, or even exist at all.

I progressed just fine without it, anyway.
Why wouldn't others be able to?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 403 by Phat, posted 05-05-2020 1:15 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5372
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 478 of 520 (876021)
05-11-2020 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 476 by Stile
05-11-2020 4:26 PM


Re: It is about sacrificial love
GDR writes:

Most of what Jesus taught was counter-cultural.

Stile writes:

I thought it's one of your major points that "the golden rule" (which is, really... "most of what Jesus taught...") is pretty much present in all cultures?

The "Golden Rule" would have been present and can even be found in the Hebrew Scriptures, but it was still counter-cultural. They hated the Romans and Jesus was telling them to love their enemies.

Stile writes:

Just because something isn't popular - doesn't mean it didn't exist.

One for Stile. Interestingly enough there was a period where the Romans labeled the Christians as atheists.

Stile writes:

Yet he did get food and water and shelter by "followers" everywhere he went.
Sounds like incentive to me.
As much incentive as anyone ever has... travel, accommodations, food, friends...

I never said they were all instant sultans.

I understand you don't want them to have any other incentive - that's clear.
And I'm also not saying I know what their incentive was.

But to say that you do know exactly what their incentive was, for sure, and that no other incentive could possibly exist - that's also clearly false.

Well, in reading ancient history we can see that there were certainly disincentives, starting with the stoning of Stephen.

I think that we can have a fairly good understanding of their incentive. Say I had been a follower of Jesus 2000 years ago. Suddenly this man I had been a disciple of is humiliating crucified by the Romans. Obviously a messiah can't be crucified by the enemy so I come to the realization that Jesus was simply a failed messiah. However a couple of days later Jesus shows up again but He is different some how. He has been resurrected and tells us that we are to spread His message, as confirmed by God with the resurrection, to the nations. That seems to me to be the likely incentive.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 476 by Stile, posted 05-11-2020 4:26 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 479 by Tangle, posted 05-11-2020 5:39 PM GDR has responded
 Message 482 by Stile, posted 05-12-2020 8:24 AM GDR has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7618
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


(2)
Message 479 of 520 (876022)
05-11-2020 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 478 by GDR
05-11-2020 5:16 PM


Re: It is about sacrificial love
GDR writes:

Say I had been a follower of Jesus 2000 years ago. Suddenly this man I had been a disciple of is humiliating crucified by the Romans. Obviously a messiah can't be crucified by the enemy so I come to the realization that Jesus was simply a failed messiah.

Yup, disaster, my beliefs are all bollocks. Damn.

However a couple of days later Jesus shows up again but He is different some how. He has been resurrected and tells us that we are to spread His message, as confirmed by God with the resurrection, to the nations. That seems to me to be the likely incentive.

Yup. You've cracked it. The story you heard that he died but then someone tells you he resurrected himself is conclusive - solves all your problems, why would anybody tell that story? I really can't think.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 478 by GDR, posted 05-11-2020 5:16 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 480 by GDR, posted 05-11-2020 6:09 PM Tangle has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5372
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 480 of 520 (876027)
05-11-2020 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 479 by Tangle
05-11-2020 5:39 PM


Re: It is about sacrificial love
Tangle writes:

Yup. You've cracked it. The story you heard that he died but then someone tells you he resurrected himself is conclusive - solves all your problems, why would anybody tell that story? I really can't think.

In my hypothetical I was an eye witness. As there were a sufficient number of us that dedicated our life to having witnesses the resurrected Jesus, others also came to believe that it was historical. I guessing that we can't count you in as part of that group.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 479 by Tangle, posted 05-11-2020 5:39 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 481 by Tangle, posted 05-12-2020 2:56 AM GDR has responded

  
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