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Tangle
Member
Posts: 7914
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 481 of 560 (876036)
05-12-2020 2:56 AM
Reply to: Message 480 by GDR
05-11-2020 6:09 PM


Re: It is about sacrificial love
You assume the stories are true because you say such eye witnesses existed, but the way the stories in the bible evolve and grow over time demonstrates that they didn't. They were added into the story later to make them more believable. It wasn't even in the very first version of the bible - Mark.

So we start with Mark. It is little known among the laity, but in fact the ending of Mark, everything after verse 16:8, does not actually exist in the earliest versions of that Gospel that survive.[28] It was added some time late in the 2nd century or even later. Before that, as far as we can tell, Mark ended at verse 16:8. But that means his Gospel ended only with an empty tomb, and a pronouncement by a mysterious young man [29] that Jesus would be seen in Galilee--nothing is said of how he would be seen. This was clearly unsatisfactory for the growing powerful arm of the Church a century later, which had staked its claim on a physical resurrection, against competing segments of the Church usually collectively referred to as the Gnostics (though not always accurately). So an ending was added that quickly pinned some physical appearances of Jesus onto the story, and for good measure put in the mouth of Christ rabid condemnations of those who didn't believe it.

Why I Don't Buy the Resurrection Story: The Main Argument


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 480 by GDR, posted 05-11-2020 6:09 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 483 by GDR, posted 05-12-2020 12:17 PM Tangle has responded

Stile
Member
Posts: 4001
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 482 of 560 (876041)
05-12-2020 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 478 by GDR
05-11-2020 5:16 PM


Re: It is about sacrificial love
GDR writes:

I think that we can have a fairly good understanding of their incentive. Say I had been a follower of Jesus 2000 years ago. Suddenly this man I had been a disciple of is humiliating crucified by the Romans. Obviously a messiah can't be crucified by the enemy so I come to the realization that Jesus was simply a failed messiah. However a couple of days later Jesus shows up again but He is different some how. He has been resurrected and tells us that we are to spread His message, as confirmed by God with the resurrection, to the nations. That seems to me to be the likely incentive.

And let's say that none of that actually happened.
Doesn't the story seem a bit more enticing than 'nothing at all?'

That seems like a very likely incentive as well.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 478 by GDR, posted 05-11-2020 5:16 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 484 by GDR, posted 05-12-2020 12:23 PM Stile has responded

GDR
Member
Posts: 5409
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 483 of 560 (876076)
05-12-2020 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 481 by Tangle
05-12-2020 2:56 AM


Re: It is about sacrificial love
Tangle writes:

You assume the stories are true because you say such eye witnesses existed, but the way the stories in the bible evolve and grow over time demonstrates that they didn't. They were added into the story later to make them more believable. It wasn't even in the very first version of the bible - Mark.

I've read Carrier before. He has his point of view. He writes about Genevieve and tries to draw a parallel between that story and the resurrection.

You would think that he could do better than that. Nobody ever followed her are concurred with the account. In short order Jesus' resurrection garnered a following that began with the eye witnesses.

Also you make a point about the early manuscript of Mark ending at 16:8. Good grief. I doubt that there is anyone who disputes that. It is also generally conceded that the original ending of Mark was lost. This wouldn't be surprising as it would have been written on a scroll. The endings and often the beginnings did get lost. The dead sea scrolls were missing many of their beginnings and endings.

Papias a contemporary of Polycarp wrote this.

Papias quote writes:

The Elder [John] also said this, “Mark, being the interpreter of Peter, whatsoever he remembered he wrote accurately, but not however in the order that these things were spoken or done by our Lord. For he neither heard the Lord, nor followed him, but afterwards, as I said, he was with Peter, who did not make a complete [or ordered] account of the Lord’s logia, but constructed his teachings according to chreiai [concise self-contained teachings]. So Mark did nothing wrong in writing down single matters as he remembered them, for he gave special attention to one thing, of not passing by anything he heard, and not falsifying anything in these matters.”


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 481 by Tangle, posted 05-12-2020 2:56 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 485 by Tangle, posted 05-12-2020 12:44 PM GDR has responded

GDR
Member
Posts: 5409
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 484 of 560 (876080)
05-12-2020 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 482 by Stile
05-12-2020 8:24 AM


Re: It is about sacrificial love
Stile writes:

And let's say that none of that actually happened.
Doesn't the story seem a bit more enticing than 'nothing at all?'

That seems like a very likely incentive as well.


Firstly who would believe it unless there was considerable support from a large group of eye witnesses.

We know the most about Paul. He had a position of influence and power with the Pharisees and was strongly committed to that movement. He completely gave that up to follow Jesus leading to a life that involved being often dependent on hand outs, being tortured and spending considerable time in priison.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 482 by Stile, posted 05-12-2020 8:24 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 488 by Stile, posted 05-12-2020 2:41 PM GDR has responded

Tangle
Member
Posts: 7914
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 485 of 560 (876083)
05-12-2020 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 483 by GDR
05-12-2020 12:17 PM


Re: It is about sacrificial love
GDR writes:

Also you make a point about the early manuscript of Mark ending at 16:8. Good grief. I doubt that there is anyone who disputes that.

So to remind you of what you say everyone knows, Mark, the anonymous author of the earliest gospel who, you tell us gets the story from Peter does not have the resurrection in his account! It's added over a century later by we don't know who. Obviously a total fabrication.

This, you tell us, is the most important event in the entire book, the event that you tell us you hang your whole faith on; without it you tell us your religion would be defunct. Yet it's missing from the first, and one would expect, the most reliable description of supposed events. How can you possibly think that any of this is in anyway reliable?

A matter of belief I suppose. It overrides all possible objections from fact.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 483 by GDR, posted 05-12-2020 12:17 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 486 by GDR, posted 05-12-2020 1:08 PM Tangle has responded

GDR
Member
Posts: 5409
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 486 of 560 (876084)
05-12-2020 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 485 by Tangle
05-12-2020 12:44 PM


Re: It is about sacrificial love
Tangle writes:

So to remind you of what you say everyone knows, Mark, the anonymous author of the earliest gospel who, you tell us gets the story from Peter does not have the resurrection in his account! It's added over a century later by we don't know who. Obviously a total fabrication.

This, you tell us, is the most important event in the entire book, the event that you tell us you hang your whole faith on; without it you tell us your religion would be defunct. Yet it's missing from the first, and one would expect, the most reliable description of supposed events. How can you possibly think that any of this is in anyway reliable?

It isn't conclusive, but the majority of scholars believe that the original ending was lost.

However even with just the original ending at 16:8 it doesn't just end with an empty tomb, but also with the statement that "His is Risen". Also the whole book of Mark recognizes Jesus as "Son of God". There is no reason to assign that title to Jesus without resurrection.

Tangle writes:

A matter of belief I suppose. It overrides all possible objections from fact.

..as is the disbelief in the whole narrative.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 485 by Tangle, posted 05-12-2020 12:44 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 487 by Tangle, posted 05-12-2020 2:17 PM GDR has responded

Tangle
Member
Posts: 7914
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 487 of 560 (876098)
05-12-2020 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 486 by GDR
05-12-2020 1:08 PM


Re: It is about sacrificial love
GDR writes:

It isn't conclusive, but the majority of scholars believe that the original ending was lost.

But for whatever reason it wasn't there! Someone filled in the hole a hundred plus years later with a story that you like. I'm asking why - how - you can possibly find that believable? Not only is it not evidence being entirely hearsay anyway, it's actually a forgery - added to later.

as is the disbelief in the whole narrative.

The facts that it is both hearsay and forged is not a matter of belief is it?

It wouldn't even get thrown out of court as poor evidence, it wouldn't even get to court at all - it's so non-evidential. Yet it's all the 'evidence' you have that you hang this shebang off.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 486 by GDR, posted 05-12-2020 1:08 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 489 by GDR, posted 05-12-2020 3:05 PM Tangle has responded

Stile
Member
Posts: 4001
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 488 of 560 (876100)
05-12-2020 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 484 by GDR
05-12-2020 12:23 PM


Re: It is about sacrificial love
GDR writes:

Firstly who would believe it unless there was considerable support from a large group of eye witnesses.

Anyone who believed there was a large group of eye witnesses. Regardless of whether or not such eye witness accounts actually occurred.

Again... I'm not saying it "was" fabricated.

But it's obvious that it could have been fabricated.
And your arguments to the contrary are easily discarded in the face of what people are capable of in reality.

Such fabrications (purposefully or not) still happen today.
And people still believe in them today. What do you think "Fake News" is all about? 2 different stories about the same event... one must be fabricated (purposefully or not.) Yet there are always plenty of people who believe both sides.
And we have the internet and plenty of tools to investigate and do fact checking that were completely unavailable back then.

To imply such fabrications would be impossible... when they still happen today, with all the tools now available to us... is pretty silly.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 484 by GDR, posted 05-12-2020 12:23 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 490 by GDR, posted 05-12-2020 3:10 PM Stile has responded

GDR
Member
Posts: 5409
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 489 of 560 (876102)
05-12-2020 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 487 by Tangle
05-12-2020 2:17 PM


Re: It is about sacrificial love
Tangle writes:

But for whatever reason it wasn't there! Someone filled in the hole a hundred plus years later with a story that you like. I'm asking why - how - you can possibly find that believable? Not only is it not evidence being entirely hearsay anyway, it's actually a forgery - added to later.

Actually we don't know that it wasn't original, but I'm pretty much convinced it wasn't.

I don't see it as a forgery. There was actually more than one ending tacked on but this was the one they stuck with. I would contend that whoever did write it did it in a manner that they believed Mark had ended it prior to it being lost. The other synoptics used Mark as source material for much of what they wrote so the tagged on ending is reasonable. Also, as I already pointed out, the uncontested part does not only end with an empty tomb but also with a risen Jesus.

Tangle writes:

It wouldn't even get thrown out of court as poor evidence, it wouldn't even get to court at all - it's so non-evidential. Yet it's all the 'evidence' you have that you hang this shebang off.

There are lots of things that are true that get thrown out of court.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 487 by Tangle, posted 05-12-2020 2:17 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 492 by Tangle, posted 05-12-2020 5:33 PM GDR has responded

GDR
Member
Posts: 5409
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 490 of 560 (876103)
05-12-2020 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 488 by Stile
05-12-2020 2:41 PM


Re: It is about sacrificial love
Stile writes:

To imply such fabrications would be impossible... when they still happen today, with all the tools now available to us... is pretty silly.

I'm not sure why you would say that. I have never said or implied that it is impossible that it was fabricated. I have simply claimed that it is less likely to be a fabrication, than that they got it essentially correct for the reasons that I have given.

Regardless, it is belief.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 488 by Stile, posted 05-12-2020 2:41 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 491 by Stile, posted 05-12-2020 4:02 PM GDR has responded

Stile
Member
Posts: 4001
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 491 of 560 (876105)
05-12-2020 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 490 by GDR
05-12-2020 3:10 PM


Re: It is about sacrificial love
GDR writes:

I'm not sure why you would say that.

You said: "Firstly who would believe it unless there was considerable support from a large group of eye witnesses."

That, to me, implies a rhetorical question with the answer being: "If the eye witnesses didn't exist - then no one would have believed the story and the Christian religion would have fizzled before it began."

Therefore, my response "To imply such fabrications would be impossible..."

That being said, however, I understand if I mis-read your implications and took your reasoning to a level you did not intend.

I have simply claimed that it is less likely to be a fabrication, than that they got it essentially correct for the reasons that I have given.

Sounds good to me.
Of course, I disagree. Especially about the "essentially correct" part - for the reasons I have given.

But such is the never-ending discussion and fun


This message is a reply to:
 Message 490 by GDR, posted 05-12-2020 3:10 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 494 by GDR, posted 05-12-2020 8:13 PM Stile has responded

Tangle
Member
Posts: 7914
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 492 of 560 (876109)
05-12-2020 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 489 by GDR
05-12-2020 3:05 PM


Re: It is about sacrificial love
GDR writes:

I don't see it as a forgery.

That's not actually a surprise. But it's inescapable. Mark was not an eyewitness. His story was completed by more anonymous people over a hundred ears later under the same name. Call it what you like, it wasn't factual. Anything but.

There are lots of things that are true that get thrown out of court.

Like I said, this couldn't possibly get *into* court.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 489 by GDR, posted 05-12-2020 3:05 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 495 by GDR, posted 05-12-2020 8:17 PM Tangle has responded

ringo
Member
Posts: 18756
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 493 of 560 (876119)
05-12-2020 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 474 by GDR
05-11-2020 4:06 PM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
GDR writes:

You want it both ways. You want to disparage Faith for a inerrant view of Scripture and then at the same time disparage my belief in a Bible written by imperfect humans.


Not at all. I disparage Faith for having a view of scripture that directly contradicts scripture. I disparage you for having a made-up view of God that ignores most of scripture. Neither of you sees scripture for what it is.

GDR writes:

There are 66 books in the Bible from hundreds of sources over hundreds of years, and you want to insist that I give them all equal credibility.


Pretty much. You have no rationale for your cherry-picking except what you want to hear.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 474 by GDR, posted 05-11-2020 4:06 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 496 by GDR, posted 05-12-2020 8:22 PM ringo has responded
 Message 498 by Phat, posted 05-13-2020 11:04 AM ringo has responded
 Message 535 by Phat, posted 06-05-2020 4:47 PM ringo has responded

GDR
Member
Posts: 5409
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 494 of 560 (876122)
05-12-2020 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 491 by Stile
05-12-2020 4:02 PM


Re: It is about sacrificial love
Stile writes:

That, to me, implies a rhetorical question with the answer being: "If the eye witnesses didn't exist - then no one would have believed the story and the Christian religion would have fizzled before it began."

It is my position that without eye witnesses and the Christian religion wouldn't have fizzled, it would never have been considered.

I don't see how anyone can read the NT without realizing that the authors firmly believed the eye witnesses, and it is generally conceded that the Gospel of John was written by an eye witness, either John son of Zebedee or John the Elder and probably the latter.

I realize that they could be using metaphorical language but the Jews had numerous others that would have been more likely candidates than some one who had not raised an army, was no threat to the Romans and who had suffered the most humiliating death possible. It was never suggested that any of the Maccabean leaders were resurrected even though they talked about it while being tortuously put to death, and they had actually reigned for 100 years.

Stile writes:

That being said, however, I understand if I mis-read your implications and took your reasoning to a level you did not intend.

In the end I don't know that the resurrection is historical but I do strongly believe that it is.

AbE

Stile writes:

But such is the never-ending discussion and fun.

Think how much more fun you could have if you came over from the dark side.

Edited by GDR, : No reason given.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 491 by Stile, posted 05-12-2020 4:02 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 503 by Stile, posted 05-14-2020 12:17 PM GDR has responded

GDR
Member
Posts: 5409
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 495 of 560 (876123)
05-12-2020 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 492 by Tangle
05-12-2020 5:33 PM


Re: It is about sacrificial love
Tangle writes:

Mark was not an eyewitness. His story was completed by more anonymous people over a hundred ears later under the same name.

According to Papias who the Gospel was written by Mark, (likely Jean Mark) who was a companion of Peter.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 492 by Tangle, posted 05-12-2020 5:33 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 497 by Tangle, posted 05-13-2020 3:53 AM GDR has responded

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