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Phat
Member
Posts: 14612
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 511 of 560 (876279)
05-16-2020 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 510 by GDR
05-15-2020 6:08 PM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
ringo, addressing GDR writes:

You conveniently ignore the occasions when God committed atrocities all on His own - the Flood, for example.

Do you mean the flood in the book? How well do you know this character?

“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 510 by GDR, posted 05-15-2020 6:08 PM GDR has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 513 by ringo, posted 05-16-2020 12:18 PM Phat has responded

ringo
Member
Posts: 18766
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 512 of 560 (876283)
05-16-2020 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 510 by GDR
05-15-2020 6:08 PM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
Phat writes:

Do I have to go through all of the egregious commands in the OT every time it comes up.


Yes, every time you make an egregious excuse like "false prophets" you're going to be called on it.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 510 by GDR, posted 05-15-2020 6:08 PM GDR has not yet responded

ringo
Member
Posts: 18766
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 513 of 560 (876284)
05-16-2020 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 511 by Phat
05-16-2020 11:12 AM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
Phat writes:

Do you mean the flood in the book? How well do you know this character?


We know that your fantasy is that you know "the real God" better than anybody else does, better than atheists, better than the people who wrote the Book. That just reinforces the conclusion that your God is entirely made up.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 511 by Phat, posted 05-16-2020 11:12 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 514 by Phat, posted 05-16-2020 3:00 PM ringo has responded

Phat
Member
Posts: 14612
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 514 of 560 (876291)
05-16-2020 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 513 by ringo
05-16-2020 12:18 PM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
ringo writes:

We know that your fantasy is that you know "the real God" better than anybody else does, better than atheists, better than the people who wrote the Book. That just reinforces the conclusion that your God is entirely made up.

And yet you and many atheists have already concluded that "My" God and the "God" described by many Christians is made up.

You can say that I live a fantasy, and if so, many others will soon join me.
I would counter charge that you and many others will be in fact living a delusion.

Wake up and smell the coffee!
Watch the news. Listen to some of the plans being discussed to track humanity via smartphone technology. Figure out that money will likely crash soon. Put 2 and 2 together and come up with a way to resurrect a global financial system.

And look into things like biomarkers genetically engineered into vaccines. Explain why the army is administering the vaccines and why they may become mandatory.

Would you really prefer a world of socialists who claim a sort of brotherly love for each other and the planet (without religion)? Do you actually think that is humanly possible? What does past evidence show in every previous form of government?


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 513 by ringo, posted 05-16-2020 12:18 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 515 by ringo, posted 05-16-2020 5:35 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 516 by PaulK, posted 05-17-2020 3:31 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

ringo
Member
Posts: 18766
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 515 of 560 (876294)
05-16-2020 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 514 by Phat
05-16-2020 3:00 PM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
Phat writes:

And yet you and many atheists have already concluded that "My" God and the "God" described by many Christians is made up.


As I said, that conclusion is based on what YOU say.

Phat writes:

I would counter charge that you and many others will be in fact living a delusion.


But you have nothing to back up that claim. You might just as well say that people who don't believe in the Three Bears are delusional.

Phat writes:

Wake up and smell the coffee!


Don't be arrogant. You've said yourself that there is no smell, no taste, no evidence at all that there is coffee I am missing out on. You have even scoffed at the idea that coffee could have a smell.

Phat writes:

Watch the news. Listen to some of the plans being discussed to track humanity....


There have always been dangers.

Phat writes:

Would you really prefer a world of socialists who claim a sort of brotherly love for each other and the planet (without religion)?


Like Jesus?

Phat writes:

Do you actually think that is humanly possible?


The evidence shows that it is.

Phat writes:

What does past evidence show in every previous form of government?


That the socialist form is best for the common man.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 514 by Phat, posted 05-16-2020 3:00 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

PaulK
Member
Posts: 16550
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 516 of 560 (876312)
05-17-2020 3:31 AM
Reply to: Message 514 by Phat
05-16-2020 3:00 PM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
quote:
Wake up and smell the coffee!
Watch the news. Listen to some of the plans being discussed to track humanity via smartphone technology. Figure out that money will likely crash soon

I’m probably more aware of what’s actually going on in smartphone tracking than you are. Are you aware of the efforts that Apple and Google are making to preserve privacy in their Covid-19 contact-tracking application ?

And why would money crash? Global economies are taking a hit, but there are upsides to it, and we can’t tell what the new equilibrium will be like yet.

quote:
And look into things like biomarkers genetically engineered into vaccines. Explain why the army is administering the vaccines and why they may become mandatory.

The former is almost certainly anti-vaccine paranoia - scientific discussion of biomarkers seems more concerned with natural biomarkers for viruses and immunity.

The army might be used to administer vaccines when you need people to administer large numbers of vaccination. More people, more medics and the organisation to get it done.

Vaccines may become mandatory because of the anti-vaccination movement and the outbreaks that result from their success in discouraging vaccination.

Perhaps you should wake up and realise that paranoid loons are not reliable sources.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 514 by Phat, posted 05-16-2020 3:00 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Stile
Member
Posts: 4001
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 517 of 560 (876465)
05-20-2020 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 504 by GDR
05-14-2020 3:26 PM


Re: It is about sacrificial love
GDR writes:

Some of the accounts around the resurrection are inconsistent, but there is no disagreement about their assertion that the resurrection happened.

And whenever a group of adults gets around a Ouija board... they all agree that "something supernatural" happened.
(The doors slammed when no one moved them / the vase fell and broke on it's own / the voices were real / no one was actually moving the slider ...)
Even though it did not.

Do you think a $15 piece of cardboard you can buy from Wall Mart is a portal to the supernatural dimension and skeptics just haven't caught on to it yet?

Eye witnesses can be correct - sure.
But they can also be incorrect - even about the general idea they "all agree on."

That's why eye-witnesses are considered extremely unreliable.

As you agreed, they believed that God had resurrected Jesus, and it would be something very difficult to believe without having overwhelming evidence.

Exactly.
But it's quite easy (and fits the mold) for making up a great story.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 504 by GDR, posted 05-14-2020 3:26 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 518 by GDR, posted 05-20-2020 3:33 PM Stile has responded

GDR
Member
Posts: 5409
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 518 of 560 (876469)
05-20-2020 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 517 by Stile
05-20-2020 1:11 PM


Re: It is about sacrificial love
Stile writes:

And whenever a group of adults gets around a Ouija board... they all agree that "something supernatural" happened.
(The doors slammed when no one moved them / the vase fell and broke on it's own / the voices were real / no one was actually moving the slider ...)
Even though it did not.

Do you think a $15 piece of cardboard you can buy from Wall Mart is a portal to the supernatural dimension and skeptics just haven't caught on to it yet?

Name me one person who has based their life on what came from a Ouija board. That comment does not come close to matching your usual well thought out arguments.

Stile writes:

Eye witnesses can be correct - sure.
But they can also be incorrect - even about the general idea they "all agree on."

That's why eye-witnesses are considered extremely unreliable.

Sure if there is only one or even two eye witnesses. In this case there were numerous eye witnesses.

Stile writes:

Exactly.
But it's quite easy (and fits the mold) for making up a great story.

There is no motivation for making it up. They had to go against all of the authorities, risk their lives, and repudiate much of the beliefs that they had firmly held previously. Look what happened to Stephen. He would have been an eye witness. He suffered a torturous death rather than saying - ya ok we were only kidding.

Not only that, if they had made it up it isn't at all what they would have come up with. Not only that they would have shown themselves in a much more positive light.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 517 by Stile, posted 05-20-2020 1:11 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 519 by Stile, posted 05-21-2020 2:20 PM GDR has responded

Stile
Member
Posts: 4001
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 519 of 560 (876512)
05-21-2020 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 518 by GDR
05-20-2020 3:33 PM


Re: It is about sacrificial love
GDR writes:

Name me one person who has based their life on what came from a Ouija board.

You say the resurrection happened.
I doubt it.

You then claim that eye witnesses are reliable support for it because "anyone seeing a car accident may not remember the details - but the car accident occurred."
I counter this with "many can play with a Ouija board and agree that something supernatural happened - even though nothing supernatural actually did."

My idea of Ouija boards is not supposed to show that the Resurrection didn't happen.

My idea of Ouija boards is to say that your claim of "the car accident actually happened" is not sufficient to show that eye witnesses are reliable, even for the major details.

Sure if there is only one or even two eye witnesses. In this case there were numerous eye witnesses.

Hundreds/thousands of eye witnesses have been known to be incorrect about claimed occurrences of the supernatural - the Ouija board is only one simple example.
Think of things like psychic entertainment shows, or haunted house conventions...
In fact, where eye witnesses are concerned - sometimes mob mentality travels easier in larger crowds - and then higher numbers of people claiming the same thing means even less, not more support.

GDR writes:

There is no motivation for making it up.

We've been over this already:

GDR writes:

Stile writes:

Yet he did get food and water and shelter by "followers" everywhere he went.
Sounds like incentive to me.
As much incentive as anyone ever has... travel, accommodations, food, friends...

I never said they were all instant sultans.

I understand you don't want them to have any other incentive - that's clear.
And I'm also not saying I know what their incentive was.

But to say that you do know exactly what their incentive was, for sure, and that no other incentive could possibly exist - that's also clearly false.

Well, in reading ancient history we can see that there were certainly disincentives, starting with the stoning of Stephen.

Message 478

There are motivations for making it up.
There are motivations for not making it up.

You think the not-making-it-up motivations are obviously greater.
I disagree.

That's the whole point we're discussing - you don't get to simply claim that everything I've already said doesn't exist. It does exist - you can review the posts, if you'd like.

Look what happened to Stephen. He would have been an eye witness. He suffered a torturous death rather than saying - ya ok we were only kidding.

Many other people following many other religions (that don't believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ) have also died torturous deaths instead of saying they were kidding about there non-resurrection-including religions.
Many others have died for totally non-religious reasons that also turn out to be incorrect (wars for terrible, stupid, created reasons...)

Does that lend evidence that the Bible is wrong and we need to do a body count?

Or, as I say, is it possible for people to die-for/promote/support "great/big ideas" that are not entirely correct about reality?

Not only that, if they had made it up it isn't at all what they would have come up with.

Coming back from the dead isn't a good enough "hook" for you?
Strange - it seems rather large to me.

Not only that they would have shown themselves in a much more positive light.

Not if they wanted to sound realistic.
Characters always seem more realistic if they are not in such a "more positive light."

It's gotten so bad in popular fan fiction, there's even a meme to make fun of it: called a Mary Sue.

I think people who told stories almost all the time would be able to identify that painting too much of a "positive light" comes off as unrealistic.
It's a fairly basic concept.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 518 by GDR, posted 05-20-2020 3:33 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 520 by GDR, posted 05-21-2020 5:35 PM Stile has responded

GDR
Member
Posts: 5409
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


(1)
Message 520 of 560 (876534)
05-21-2020 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 519 by Stile
05-21-2020 2:20 PM


Re: It is about sacrificial love
Stile writes:

Hundreds/thousands of eye witnesses have been known to be incorrect about claimed occurrences of the supernatural - the Ouija board is only one simple example.
Think of things like psychic entertainment shows, or haunted house conventions...
In fact, where eye witnesses are concerned - sometimes mob mentality travels easier in larger crowds - and then higher numbers of people claiming the same thing means even less, not more support.

That may all be true but this isn't a supernatural event as such. The resurrection is claimed to be physical and historical. Jesus died on the cross. Subsequent to that numerous people interacted with Him in a physical way. It may have supernatural underpinnings but it is a very physical event. They aren't saying that they had a vision, the eye witnesses in groups claim to have experienced Him physically.

It isn't a case of mob mentality. Where do you see a mob in any of this. It is a case of people experiencing a risen physical Jesus in a way that no one would have expected.

Stile writes:

There are motivations for making it up.
There are motivations for not making it up.

Stile writes:

Yet he did get food and water and shelter by "followers" everywhere he went.
Sounds like incentive to me.
As much incentive as anyone ever has... travel, accommodations, food, friends...

But they had all of that already without alienating themselves from their fellow Jews, their family or friends. Paul had a prestigious position and was upwardly mobile. Peter could have a nice quite family life fishing the Galilee. Their opportunity to travel meant travel by trudging on dusty roads day after day. The food they received was the equivalent of a homeless person today being given hand outs.

Stile writes:

Or, as I say, is it possible for people to die-for/promote/support "great/big ideas" that are not entirely correct about reality?

Absolutely, but they did believe in what they were doing. You have already agreed that the apostles believed that the resurrection was historical. They aren't saying that they have had some kind of supernatural experience, they are saying that they have witnessed a physical event.

Stile writes:

Coming back from the dead isn't a good enough "hook" for you?
Strange - it seems rather large to me.

What I am saying is that even if I agree, which I don't that they had sufficient motivation to fabricate all of this, then this isn't what they would have come up with.

They were first century Jews. The would have had Jesus glowing in the dark, surrounded by angels etc, not BBQing by the lake.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 519 by Stile, posted 05-21-2020 2:20 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 521 by Stile, posted 05-28-2020 12:28 PM GDR has responded

Stile
Member
Posts: 4001
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 521 of 560 (876796)
05-28-2020 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 520 by GDR
05-21-2020 5:35 PM


Re: It is about sacrificial love
GDR writes:

That may all be true but this isn't a supernatural event as such. The resurrection is claimed to be physical and historical. Jesus died on the cross. Subsequent to that numerous people interacted with Him in a physical way. It may have supernatural underpinnings but it is a very physical event. They aren't saying that they had a vision, the eye witnesses in groups claim to have experienced Him physically.

Just as many eye witnesses to ouija boards, psychic entertainment shows and haunted house conventions can claim to have experienced many things physically... that didn't actually happen.

Again - I'm not saying that this "proves you wrong."
I'm saying that there's "reasonable doubt" on what you claim to be true.

It isn't a case of mob mentality. Where do you see a mob in any of this.

You were the one who claimed there were many, many people.
The word "mob" in the context of the phrase "mob mentality" only refers to there being "many, many people..."
It does not imply that the people were frenzied or acting hysterically as may be assumed in other contexts of the word "mob."
We don't have to use the word "mob mentality" - we can call it "many, many people all believing the same thing that still may or may not have happened."
It's all the same to me.

It is a case of people experiencing a risen physical Jesus in a way that no one would have expected.

Or believing it happened when it actually didn't.

You have already agreed that the apostles believed that the resurrection was historical. They aren't saying that they have had some kind of supernatural experience, they are saying that they have witnessed a physical event.

Many people believe in things that are historical that didn't actually happen. Even people in very large groups who are saying they have witnessed a physical event. Some times that physical event simply didn't happen at all.

When the "claimed physical event" is a car accident - yes, usually the large group of people is correct that a car accident happened but just wrong on the details (sometimes major details...)

When the "claimed physical event" is a ouija board "from beyond..." encounter, or a psychic entertainment show, or a haunted house convention... usually the large group of people is incorrect and the claimed physical event actually didn't happen at all.

Up to you where "bringing someone back to life after 3 days, 2 thousand years ago..." falls in those two categories.

To me, it's obvious that it's closer to the second one.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 520 by GDR, posted 05-21-2020 5:35 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 522 by GDR, posted 05-28-2020 3:54 PM Stile has responded
 Message 523 by Phat, posted 05-29-2020 7:47 PM Stile has responded

GDR
Member
Posts: 5409
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 522 of 560 (876808)
05-28-2020 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 521 by Stile
05-28-2020 12:28 PM


Re: It is about sacrificial love
Stile writes:

Just as many eye witnesses to ouija boards, psychic entertainment shows and haunted house conventions can claim to have experienced many things physically... that didn't actually happen.

But you are making a category mistake. You are confusing what was seen for what caused the happening. The pointer on the ouija board did move and everyone would agree. That fact is correct. It is the same with resurrection. People all agreed that Jesus was resurrected. The question in both instances is why.

Stile writes:

Again - I'm not saying that this "proves you wrong."
I'm saying that there's "reasonable doubt" on what you claim to be true.


..just as I can't prove you wrong. The doubt stems from the fact that this happening does not conform to any scientific law that we know of, and is something that none of us have witnessed or experienced. It is completely outside the bounds of normal human existence.

However if we are the result of intelligence and life itself appeared in a mindless universe then there are grounds to give the accounts credibility.

Stile writes:

You were the one who claimed there were many, many people.
The word "mob" in the context of the phrase "mob mentality" only refers to there being "many, many people..."
It does not imply that the people were frenzied or acting hysterically as may be assumed in other contexts of the word "mob."
We don't have to use the word "mob mentality" - we can call it "many, many people all believing the same thing that still may or may not have happened."
It's all the same to me.

Fair enough, but I think that using the term "mob mentality" does have negative implications that your other phrase doesn't.

GDR writes:

It is a case of people experiencing a risen physical Jesus in a way that no one would have expected.

Stile writes:

Or believing it happened when it actually didn't.

It would be hard not to believe if you are able to touch and converse with a physically resurrected Jesus. My point though was simply that if they were going to make something up this is not even close to what they would have come up with within a 1st century Jewish culture.

Stile writes:

Many people believe in things that are historical that didn't actually happen. Even people in very large groups who are saying they have witnessed a physical event. Some times that physical event simply didn't happen at all.

Can you give me an example.

Stile writes:

When the "claimed physical event" is a car accident - yes, usually the large group of people is correct that a car accident happened but just wrong on the detail

As in this case. They all agree that Jesus was bodily resurrected but not all the details align.
Stile writes:

When the "claimed physical event" is a ouija board "from beyond..."
encounter, or a psychic entertainment show, or a haunted house convention... usually the large group of people is incorrect and the claimed physical event actually didn't happen at all.

But again, they would all agree that the pointer on the ouija board moved.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 521 by Stile, posted 05-28-2020 12:28 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 524 by Stile, posted 06-02-2020 4:42 PM GDR has responded

Phat
Member
Posts: 14612
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 523 of 560 (876883)
05-29-2020 7:47 PM
Reply to: Message 521 by Stile
05-28-2020 12:28 PM


Re: It is about sacrificial love
Stile writes:

There are motivations for making it up.

Yeah. Control and manipulation.
There are motivations for not making it up.
Honesty perhaps? A desire to share an important feeling with others in order to help them as it helped you?

Stile writes:

Just as many eyewitnesses to ouija boards, psychic entertainment shows, and haunted house conventions can claim to have experienced many things physically... that didn't actually happen.

I might point out that we (Biblical Christians)believe in a real and a corresponding counterfeit.
"How were Pharaoh’s magicians able to perform miracles?"
Phat writes:

Of course you likely will argue that there is no difference as it all was a trick. But there are too many instances to claim that excuse for all of them.

Stile writes:

Again - I'm not saying that this "proves you wrong."
I'm saying that there's "reasonable doubt" on what you claim to be true.

Reasonable doubt is healthy and expected. We dont want the whole room to simply become brainwashed into an irrational belief. I would argue, however, that we dont have skepticism beyond a reasonable doubt either.

Phat writes:

Perhaps it is good to be skeptical in that scripture tells us that (...)


Matthew 16:4 writes:

A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign shall be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.” And He left them and departed.

Contrast this with this:
Mark 16:7 writes:

And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues...

In other words, Seek Jesus and not signs and wonders. If you find Him, He will transform your mind and signs and wonders will follow you as you go around helping people, healing them, feeding them, loving them. The keys are to be humble rather than proud, honest, and with no ulterior motives.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 521 by Stile, posted 05-28-2020 12:28 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 525 by Stile, posted 06-04-2020 9:15 AM Phat has not yet responded

Stile
Member
Posts: 4001
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 524 of 560 (877057)
06-02-2020 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 522 by GDR
05-28-2020 3:54 PM


Re: It is about sacrificial love
GDR writes:

But you are making a category mistake. You are confusing what was seen for what caused the happening. The pointer on the ouija board did move and everyone would agree.

If those were the things I was comparing, I would agree - it would be a category mistake.
But, that's not the things I'm comparing.

By "eye witnesses to ouija boards, psychic entertainment shows and haunted house conventions" I meant physical claims (from large-amounts-of-agreeing-people) like:
-things floating through walls
-talking to the dead while the dead are physically present in the room
-seeing the dead/demons/angels physically present in the room
-floating objects
-things being moved or broken by non-human-alive-entities (such as dead people, or spirits or demons or angels)

Would you agree such physical claims are in the same category as the ressurection?
-I agree that "the ouija board pointer moving while everyone is touching it" is not in this sort of category

Would you agree that almost every time such claims are made by those large-amounts-of-agreeing-people from ouija boards, psychic entertainment shows and haunted houses - that they are incorrect and the claim did not actually happen as described by the witnesses?
Or do you think that such claims, that occur very often, are as likely to be as correct as you claim the resurrection to be?

However if we are the result of intelligence and life itself appeared in a mindless universe then there are grounds to give the accounts credibility.

Sure.
Of course, there's no evidence that "we are the result of intelligence."
And there is evidence that suggests "life itself appeared in a mindless universe" without any requirement for intelligence at all.

Fair enough, but I think that using the term "mob mentality" does have negative implications that your other phrase doesn't.

Understandable.
I just don't have another term for such "things people agree to while in a large group regardless of the veracity of the facts" - I'm willing to use a term you provide, if you'd like.

It would be hard not to believe if you are able to touch and converse with a physically resurrected Jesus.

Just as it is hard not to believe if are able to touch and converse with the dead/sprits/demons/angels while engaging with many others in a ouija board, psychic entertainment show or haunted house convention.

Such claims are rather prevalent, in certain circles.

GDR writes:

Stile writes:

Many people believe in things that are historical that didn't actually happen. Even people in very large groups who are saying they have witnessed a physical event. Some times that physical event simply didn't happen at all.


Can you give me an example.

Ouija Boards - "demonic encounters, spirits physically attacking houseguests..."
Psychics - reviews from people all demanding in agreement that this guy is "for real."
Haunted Houses - including tales of "moving objects" and physical appearences/touching of the ghosts. Some have even claimed to have been raped by ghosts.
There are many, many more.
These kinds of physical claims are not rare.

There are many in agreement with the originators who demand such stories must be true.
Just as you demand (in agreement with many, and the authors of the Gospels) that the resurrection must be true.

There are also those (you may be among them?) who disagree that such physical ghost stories "must be true."
Just as I am among those who disagree that such physical stories of the resurrection "must be true."

GDR writes:

As in this case. They all agree that Jesus was bodily resurrected but not all the details align.

As is the case with many ouija board, psychis entertainment and haunted house convention stories believe whole-heartedly by their believers.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 522 by GDR, posted 05-28-2020 3:54 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 526 by GDR, posted 06-04-2020 12:00 PM Stile has responded

Stile
Member
Posts: 4001
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 525 of 560 (877094)
06-04-2020 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 523 by Phat
05-29-2020 7:47 PM


Re: It is about sacrificial love
Phat writes:

Stile writes:

There are motivations for making it up.


Yeah. Control and manipulation.

Could be.
Could also be "food and water and shelter."
Could also be "finding a place where people respect what I have to say as a teacher."
Could also be "getting away from my previous life and into this new life that I like much better."

There can be many, many different motivations.

At this stage (so far removed, with such minimal and unreliable information of the historical events) it would be rather unreasonable to think that any one particular motivation was "the one!"

Phat writes:

Honesty perhaps? A desire to share an important feeling with others in order to help them as it helped you?

Sure. Could be.
Of course, one can have a desire to share an important feeling with others in order to help them as it helped you... while being honest about it... while it being totally not-based-in-reality-at-all as well. It can also be detrimental to others, even if your motivation is to attempt to help them. Realizing that not all people react to the same things in the same way is a sign of maturity. Any idea of "well, it helped me - therefore, it will help you too!" is immature. The real idea of trying to help other is something more along the lines of: "well, if it helped me - it might help you, or it might not - let's try it and feel free to reject it at any time without any negativity from me."

But there are too many instances to claim that excuse for all of them.

There are more instances in Greek and Roman mythology.
Does that mean Achilles really was invincible except for his ankle?

Or can stories just be stories - no matter how many of them there are?

I would argue, however, that we don't have skepticism beyond a reasonable doubt either.

You can try. But the evidence is against you.
Here's the factual pattern we have:

1. A claim of supernatural activity.
2. Investigation of the event.
3. Having all the information available allows us to learn that the activity was not supernatural and was actually mundane.
4. Proof that no supernatural activity was actually involved, and the event is completely explained by mundane processes.

This has happened for weather-being-caused-by-the-Gods.
This has happened for the-sun-moving-over-the-sky-by-the-Gods.
This has happened for sickness-being-caused-by-the-Gods.
This has happened for earthquakes-being-caused-by-the-Gods.

...and there are many, many more examples of this process going from steps 1-4.

Let's say the Bible is at Step 1 or 2. (As we do not have "all the information" - it seems to be lost to history.)
What are the chances it wouldn't end up hitting 3 and 4 anyway?

We could have a flow like this:

1. A claim of supernatural activity.
2. Investigation of the event.
3. Having all the information available allows us to learn that the activity was indeed supernatural and not mundane.
4. Proof that the supernatural was actually involved in the activity, and the event cannot be considered mundane at all.

That's the other way it could go, right?

Has this ever actually happened for any learning we've ever done on any other topic or event in all of human history?

So... we have:

-sometimes we don't have all the information and can't complete either list
-sometimes we do identify that no Supernatural activity occurred and it was entirely mundane, and all the people who "whole-heartedly believed it was Supernatural" were, unfortunately, mistaken.
-never has any event in all of human history ever been identified as actually being Supernatural activity and definitely not mundane

This is why it is reasonable to have skepticism "beyond a reasonable doubt" that another Supernatural claim of activity will also turn out to be mundane.
Sure - it could be wrong and maybe it was actually Supernatural. But following the pattern of it-is-not-Supernatural - is reasonable. Ignoring this pattern and assuming that this is "the exception!" just because you really feel strongly that it is - is irrational.

Again - "reasonable" and "irrational" do not equate to "correct" and "wrong."

Yet - they are what they are.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 523 by Phat, posted 05-29-2020 7:47 PM Phat has not yet responded

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