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Author Topic:   Hitch is dead
Phat
Member
Posts: 13920
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 511 of 520 (876279)
05-16-2020 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 510 by GDR
05-15-2020 6:08 PM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
ringo, addressing GDR writes:

You conveniently ignore the occasions when God committed atrocities all on His own - the Flood, for example.

Do you mean the flood in the book? How well do you know this character?

“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 510 by GDR, posted 05-15-2020 6:08 PM GDR has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 513 by ringo, posted 05-16-2020 12:18 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18100
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 512 of 520 (876283)
05-16-2020 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 510 by GDR
05-15-2020 6:08 PM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
Phat writes:

Do I have to go through all of the egregious commands in the OT every time it comes up.


Yes, every time you make an egregious excuse like "false prophets" you're going to be called on it.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 510 by GDR, posted 05-15-2020 6:08 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18100
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 513 of 520 (876284)
05-16-2020 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 511 by Phat
05-16-2020 11:12 AM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
Phat writes:

Do you mean the flood in the book? How well do you know this character?


We know that your fantasy is that you know "the real God" better than anybody else does, better than atheists, better than the people who wrote the Book. That just reinforces the conclusion that your God is entirely made up.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 511 by Phat, posted 05-16-2020 11:12 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 514 by Phat, posted 05-16-2020 3:00 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13920
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 514 of 520 (876291)
05-16-2020 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 513 by ringo
05-16-2020 12:18 PM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
ringo writes:

We know that your fantasy is that you know "the real God" better than anybody else does, better than atheists, better than the people who wrote the Book. That just reinforces the conclusion that your God is entirely made up.

And yet you and many atheists have already concluded that "My" God and the "God" described by many Christians is made up.

You can say that I live a fantasy, and if so, many others will soon join me.
I would counter charge that you and many others will be in fact living a delusion.

Wake up and smell the coffee!
Watch the news. Listen to some of the plans being discussed to track humanity via smartphone technology. Figure out that money will likely crash soon. Put 2 and 2 together and come up with a way to resurrect a global financial system.

And look into things like biomarkers genetically engineered into vaccines. Explain why the army is administering the vaccines and why they may become mandatory.

Would you really prefer a world of socialists who claim a sort of brotherly love for each other and the planet (without religion)? Do you actually think that is humanly possible? What does past evidence show in every previous form of government?


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 513 by ringo, posted 05-16-2020 12:18 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 515 by ringo, posted 05-16-2020 5:35 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 516 by PaulK, posted 05-17-2020 3:31 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18100
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 515 of 520 (876294)
05-16-2020 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 514 by Phat
05-16-2020 3:00 PM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
Phat writes:

And yet you and many atheists have already concluded that "My" God and the "God" described by many Christians is made up.


As I said, that conclusion is based on what YOU say.

Phat writes:

I would counter charge that you and many others will be in fact living a delusion.


But you have nothing to back up that claim. You might just as well say that people who don't believe in the Three Bears are delusional.

Phat writes:

Wake up and smell the coffee!


Don't be arrogant. You've said yourself that there is no smell, no taste, no evidence at all that there is coffee I am missing out on. You have even scoffed at the idea that coffee could have a smell.

Phat writes:

Watch the news. Listen to some of the plans being discussed to track humanity....


There have always been dangers.

Phat writes:

Would you really prefer a world of socialists who claim a sort of brotherly love for each other and the planet (without religion)?


Like Jesus?

Phat writes:

Do you actually think that is humanly possible?


The evidence shows that it is.

Phat writes:

What does past evidence show in every previous form of government?


That the socialist form is best for the common man.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 514 by Phat, posted 05-16-2020 3:00 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16186
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.0


(1)
Message 516 of 520 (876312)
05-17-2020 3:31 AM
Reply to: Message 514 by Phat
05-16-2020 3:00 PM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
quote:
Wake up and smell the coffee!
Watch the news. Listen to some of the plans being discussed to track humanity via smartphone technology. Figure out that money will likely crash soon

I’m probably more aware of what’s actually going on in smartphone tracking than you are. Are you aware of the efforts that Apple and Google are making to preserve privacy in their Covid-19 contact-tracking application ?

And why would money crash? Global economies are taking a hit, but there are upsides to it, and we can’t tell what the new equilibrium will be like yet.

quote:
And look into things like biomarkers genetically engineered into vaccines. Explain why the army is administering the vaccines and why they may become mandatory.

The former is almost certainly anti-vaccine paranoia - scientific discussion of biomarkers seems more concerned with natural biomarkers for viruses and immunity.

The army might be used to administer vaccines when you need people to administer large numbers of vaccination. More people, more medics and the organisation to get it done.

Vaccines may become mandatory because of the anti-vaccination movement and the outbreaks that result from their success in discouraging vaccination.

Perhaps you should wake up and realise that paranoid loons are not reliable sources.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 514 by Phat, posted 05-16-2020 3:00 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3943
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 517 of 520 (876465)
05-20-2020 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 504 by GDR
05-14-2020 3:26 PM


Re: It is about sacrificial love
GDR writes:

Some of the accounts around the resurrection are inconsistent, but there is no disagreement about their assertion that the resurrection happened.

And whenever a group of adults gets around a Ouija board... they all agree that "something supernatural" happened.
(The doors slammed when no one moved them / the vase fell and broke on it's own / the voices were real / no one was actually moving the slider ...)
Even though it did not.

Do you think a $15 piece of cardboard you can buy from Wall Mart is a portal to the supernatural dimension and skeptics just haven't caught on to it yet?

Eye witnesses can be correct - sure.
But they can also be incorrect - even about the general idea they "all agree on."

That's why eye-witnesses are considered extremely unreliable.

As you agreed, they believed that God had resurrected Jesus, and it would be something very difficult to believe without having overwhelming evidence.

Exactly.
But it's quite easy (and fits the mold) for making up a great story.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 504 by GDR, posted 05-14-2020 3:26 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 518 by GDR, posted 05-20-2020 3:33 PM Stile has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5372
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 518 of 520 (876469)
05-20-2020 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 517 by Stile
05-20-2020 1:11 PM


Re: It is about sacrificial love
Stile writes:

And whenever a group of adults gets around a Ouija board... they all agree that "something supernatural" happened.
(The doors slammed when no one moved them / the vase fell and broke on it's own / the voices were real / no one was actually moving the slider ...)
Even though it did not.

Do you think a $15 piece of cardboard you can buy from Wall Mart is a portal to the supernatural dimension and skeptics just haven't caught on to it yet?

Name me one person who has based their life on what came from a Ouija board. That comment does not come close to matching your usual well thought out arguments.

Stile writes:

Eye witnesses can be correct - sure.
But they can also be incorrect - even about the general idea they "all agree on."

That's why eye-witnesses are considered extremely unreliable.

Sure if there is only one or even two eye witnesses. In this case there were numerous eye witnesses.

Stile writes:

Exactly.
But it's quite easy (and fits the mold) for making up a great story.

There is no motivation for making it up. They had to go against all of the authorities, risk their lives, and repudiate much of the beliefs that they had firmly held previously. Look what happened to Stephen. He would have been an eye witness. He suffered a torturous death rather than saying - ya ok we were only kidding.

Not only that, if they had made it up it isn't at all what they would have come up with. Not only that they would have shown themselves in a much more positive light.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 517 by Stile, posted 05-20-2020 1:11 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 519 by Stile, posted 05-21-2020 2:20 PM GDR has responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3943
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 519 of 520 (876512)
05-21-2020 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 518 by GDR
05-20-2020 3:33 PM


Re: It is about sacrificial love
GDR writes:

Name me one person who has based their life on what came from a Ouija board.

You say the resurrection happened.
I doubt it.

You then claim that eye witnesses are reliable support for it because "anyone seeing a car accident may not remember the details - but the car accident occurred."
I counter this with "many can play with a Ouija board and agree that something supernatural happened - even though nothing supernatural actually did."

My idea of Ouija boards is not supposed to show that the Resurrection didn't happen.

My idea of Ouija boards is to say that your claim of "the car accident actually happened" is not sufficient to show that eye witnesses are reliable, even for the major details.

Sure if there is only one or even two eye witnesses. In this case there were numerous eye witnesses.

Hundreds/thousands of eye witnesses have been known to be incorrect about claimed occurrences of the supernatural - the Ouija board is only one simple example.
Think of things like psychic entertainment shows, or haunted house conventions...
In fact, where eye witnesses are concerned - sometimes mob mentality travels easier in larger crowds - and then higher numbers of people claiming the same thing means even less, not more support.

GDR writes:

There is no motivation for making it up.

We've been over this already:

GDR writes:

Stile writes:

Yet he did get food and water and shelter by "followers" everywhere he went.
Sounds like incentive to me.
As much incentive as anyone ever has... travel, accommodations, food, friends...

I never said they were all instant sultans.

I understand you don't want them to have any other incentive - that's clear.
And I'm also not saying I know what their incentive was.

But to say that you do know exactly what their incentive was, for sure, and that no other incentive could possibly exist - that's also clearly false.

Well, in reading ancient history we can see that there were certainly disincentives, starting with the stoning of Stephen.

Message 478

There are motivations for making it up.
There are motivations for not making it up.

You think the not-making-it-up motivations are obviously greater.
I disagree.

That's the whole point we're discussing - you don't get to simply claim that everything I've already said doesn't exist. It does exist - you can review the posts, if you'd like.

Look what happened to Stephen. He would have been an eye witness. He suffered a torturous death rather than saying - ya ok we were only kidding.

Many other people following many other religions (that don't believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ) have also died torturous deaths instead of saying they were kidding about there non-resurrection-including religions.
Many others have died for totally non-religious reasons that also turn out to be incorrect (wars for terrible, stupid, created reasons...)

Does that lend evidence that the Bible is wrong and we need to do a body count?

Or, as I say, is it possible for people to die-for/promote/support "great/big ideas" that are not entirely correct about reality?

Not only that, if they had made it up it isn't at all what they would have come up with.

Coming back from the dead isn't a good enough "hook" for you?
Strange - it seems rather large to me.

Not only that they would have shown themselves in a much more positive light.

Not if they wanted to sound realistic.
Characters always seem more realistic if they are not in such a "more positive light."

It's gotten so bad in popular fan fiction, there's even a meme to make fun of it: called a Mary Sue.

I think people who told stories almost all the time would be able to identify that painting too much of a "positive light" comes off as unrealistic.
It's a fairly basic concept.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 518 by GDR, posted 05-20-2020 3:33 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 520 by GDR, posted 05-21-2020 5:35 PM Stile has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5372
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 520 of 520 (876534)
05-21-2020 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 519 by Stile
05-21-2020 2:20 PM


Re: It is about sacrificial love
Stile writes:

Hundreds/thousands of eye witnesses have been known to be incorrect about claimed occurrences of the supernatural - the Ouija board is only one simple example.
Think of things like psychic entertainment shows, or haunted house conventions...
In fact, where eye witnesses are concerned - sometimes mob mentality travels easier in larger crowds - and then higher numbers of people claiming the same thing means even less, not more support.

That may all be true but this isn't a supernatural event as such. The resurrection is claimed to be physical and historical. Jesus died on the cross. Subsequent to that numerous people interacted with Him in a physical way. It may have supernatural underpinnings but it is a very physical event. They aren't saying that they had a vision, the eye witnesses in groups claim to have experienced Him physically.

It isn't a case of mob mentality. Where do you see a mob in any of this. It is a case of people experiencing a risen physical Jesus in a way that no one would have expected.

Stile writes:

There are motivations for making it up.
There are motivations for not making it up.

Stile writes:

Yet he did get food and water and shelter by "followers" everywhere he went.
Sounds like incentive to me.
As much incentive as anyone ever has... travel, accommodations, food, friends...

But they had all of that already without alienating themselves from their fellow Jews, their family or friends. Paul had a prestigious position and was upwardly mobile. Peter could have a nice quite family life fishing the Galilee. Their opportunity to travel meant travel by trudging on dusty roads day after day. The food they received was the equivalent of a homeless person today being given hand outs.

Stile writes:

Or, as I say, is it possible for people to die-for/promote/support "great/big ideas" that are not entirely correct about reality?

Absolutely, but they did believe in what they were doing. You have already agreed that the apostles believed that the resurrection was historical. They aren't saying that they have had some kind of supernatural experience, they are saying that they have witnessed a physical event.

Stile writes:

Coming back from the dead isn't a good enough "hook" for you?
Strange - it seems rather large to me.

What I am saying is that even if I agree, which I don't that they had sufficient motivation to fabricate all of this, then this isn't what they would have come up with.

They were first century Jews. The would have had Jesus glowing in the dark, surrounded by angels etc, not BBQing by the lake.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 519 by Stile, posted 05-21-2020 2:20 PM Stile has not yet responded

  
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