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Author Topic:   Moral high ground
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 96 of 318 (645151)
12-23-2011 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Butterflytyrant
12-17-2011 11:28 PM


Butterflytyrant writes:
I have noticed that many religious people seem to believe that they hold some sort of moral high ground. They seem to believe that because they follow the teachings of a particular faith, they automatically become superior to others when it comes to interpretation of scripture, moral and ethical judgements etc
One of the reasons for this claim often stems from the idea that their particular religion or religion in general has a lower kill rate than no religion.
The perpetrators of wars will always find ways of justifying their actions. Usually it is done in the name of the state, sometimes in the name of religion and sometimes it’s both. In the end all war is about the personal lust for power and wealth and is an abuse of the position held in the state and/or their religion.
The state isn’t responsible for wars and neither is religion. It is people who commit theses atrocities, and unfortunately as Shakespeare wrote in Julius Caesar; the evil that men do live after them and the good is oft interred with their bones.
Or to quote The Shadow, (for those old enough), who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Butterflytyrant, posted 12-17-2011 11:28 PM Butterflytyrant has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Dirk, posted 12-23-2011 10:55 PM GDR has replied
 Message 102 by Taz, posted 12-24-2011 4:16 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 109 of 318 (645207)
12-24-2011 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by Dirk
12-23-2011 10:55 PM


Dirk writes:
We can also turn this around: The state isn't responsible for good deeds and neither is religion. It is people who commit them. That's the problem with religions: they deny responsibility for all the bad stuff yet insist that good things can only be the result of faith...
I don't disagree with that. People be they religious or not are capable of good or exil. Religion or atheism for that matter is just what people believe or which group they identify with.
Dirk writes:
Btw, the 'abuse' of religion to justify war would already be a good reason to get rid of it altogether; at least it would mean that people who want to commit atrocities would have one less reason to hide behind...
Some people use religion as an justification for war but a good many people also use religion as justification for not going to war.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Dirk, posted 12-23-2011 10:55 PM Dirk has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by frako, posted 12-24-2011 10:23 AM GDR has replied
 Message 114 by hooah212002, posted 12-24-2011 11:05 AM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 111 of 318 (645210)
12-24-2011 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by Taz
12-24-2011 4:16 AM


Taz writes:
I absolutely don't accept this. It seems human nature to try to escape responsibility. I've said this before and I'll say it again. Inaction is another way of approving. Just because you sat back and not participate in killings and other sins by your peers doesn't absorb you of responsibility. I would have felt better if half the German population was put into concentration camps after the war. They elected the nazis. They stood back and allowed the nazis to do all those things.
I agree with that. I don't see where it is contradiction to what I said in the post you replied to. I'm not blaming what Stalin did or Hitler on atheism. It was the result of those in power abusing it but I also agree that it took others out of lust for power and wealth to sign up and there is the group that you mention that go along with it out of ambivalence or fear.
Also, I don't think that the German population had any idea what the Nazis would do after they were elected. It seems to me that most democracies have had instances where they elected leaders who did things that they were dismayed by after the fact.
Taz writes:
This is why I'm not going to let this go. You Christians, in your morally superior ways, are allowing the socons to take over. Don't even try to deny responsibility.
I've said numerous times in discussions on this forum that I don't see Christians as being morally superior to others. The discussions that I've engaged in are centred on why anything is considered moral.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Taz, posted 12-24-2011 4:16 AM Taz has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 113 of 318 (645213)
12-24-2011 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by frako
12-24-2011 10:23 AM


farko writes:
My religion is moraly supperior because 1 of every 1000 folowers of my religion refused to kill people.
I didn't say that my religion is morally superior to others.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by frako, posted 12-24-2011 10:23 AM frako has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


(2)
Message 190 of 318 (645750)
12-29-2011 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by hooah212002
12-29-2011 1:39 PM


Re: You cant create the utopia until you free people from religion and get rid of it.
hooah212002 writes:
However, christians, by and large, are very willing to lay the blame on Islam as a whole.
In the west I'd suggest that is largely true of the population in general.
However, count me as one Christian, (and I would suggest that I'm in the majority world wide), who lays the blame at the feet of fanaticism. In the case of 9/11 it happened to be Islamic fanaticism.
The largest, (to the best of my knowledge), terrorist plot that we had in Canada was primarily foiled by mainline Muslims and the information that was gained from that source.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by hooah212002, posted 12-29-2011 1:39 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by hooah212002, posted 12-29-2011 2:34 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 193 of 318 (645758)
12-29-2011 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by hooah212002
12-29-2011 2:34 PM


We're all in this together
hooah212002 writes:
Perhaps the silent majority..... There is plenty of hatred towards Islam in general. Let's just look at how it was portrayed in accusing Obama as being a Muslim... Also look at the big ordeal that surrounded the TV show "American Muslim".
That was my point and I think that we in the west had better realize that if we start tarring all Muslims with the extremist brush, we will not only be wrong, but we will pay a large price for it.
If I were a moderate Muslim and I knew of some fellow Muslims that I suspected were planning something, I am going to be much more inclined to report them to a society in which I feel accepted than in one in which I feel rejected. That isn't to say that most Muslims wouldn't report their knowledge or suspicions anyway, just because it is the right thing to do, but you know what I mean.
In North America we are immigrant societies, (aside from the indigenous people), built on inclusiveness. That is part of our culture and if we start rejecting that it is a steep slippery slope from there.
hooah212002 writes:
So, fine, say "not me, not me. I'm not a bigot" but that falls on deaf ears when you and people like you are mute about the subject. Sure, there may be a number of liberal christians such as yourself, but you lot are far too quiet and don't put enough distance between your "right version" of christianity and the extremists. I go so far as to say that you enable the extremism by acting as a shield for it.
Firstly I'm not keen on labels but if you must label me I don't consider myself a liberal Christian, I would just call myself orthodox.
I'm not quite sure what you suggest I do with my views. I post them here and on the odd other forum, and I talk with anyone who cares to listen. Frankly, in my view the best way to share my views is to try and live them. I'm far from successful in doing that well, but it is the goal.
Actually I was speaking two days ago to a young Canadian Muslim who is Palestinian and grew up in the Gaza. We discussed our respective faiths and the amount of overlap that there is between the two. If we start by sharing what we have in common we are then in a position to understand how we live together without letting our differences get in the way. (Heck, I even have friends who are atheists. )
Believe me, if I was aware of some form of extremism of any form that was endangering human life I'd do what I could to stop it. Most Christians I know aren’t fundamentalists and even those that are, are busily raising families and in most cases doing charitable work. I think that their views do lead to a basic misunderstanding of the nature of God but frankly most of them just read the parts of the Bible that focus on the love of God and ignore the contrary bits, and if absolutely necessary explain them away by saying that it was necessary then but we have a new covenant.
As far as my "right" version of Christianity is concerned I would never label it as that. It is Christianity as I understand it and believe it. Maybe in the next life I'll have it sorted out and find out where I was right and where I was wrong. (Just as long as I don't have to listen to Dawn saying I told you so, I told you so for eternity. )
Edited by GDR, : Changed title and added a bit
Edited by GDR, : No reason given.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by hooah212002, posted 12-29-2011 2:34 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by hooah212002, posted 12-29-2011 6:31 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 201 of 318 (645770)
12-29-2011 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by hooah212002
12-29-2011 7:28 PM


Re: You cant create the utopia until you free people from religion and get rid of it.
hooah212002 writes:
If it weren't for the liberal relgionists, we as a society would have no problem relegating the silly beliefs of christianity/islam/judaism etc. the way of astrology. However, we do have the liberal religionists who stand in the way and say "you need to let people believe what they want" and since you lot can't unify on a reasonable, rational belief set, the rest of us are left having to deal with the extremists because it is still a faux-pa to mock the belief that we need a magic jewish zombie to forgive us for some rib-woman eating a fruit. If we were left with nothing but the extremists or literalists, it would be that much easier for the whole of society to realize how much better of we are without fairy tales and we could eradicate them from every day public discourse.
This will all probably sound quite sanctimonious but here goes anyway. It is just a couple of thoughts that I have about your post.
Personally I have never found it helpful when arguing for or against someone else's beliefs to mock either them or their beliefs. Frankly I find it difficult to understand how anyone can believe that existence and particularly human existence could have evolved from a non-intelligent first cause, but I do recognize that there are many people, much more intelligent than myself who do believe just that.
Just maybe, you could recognize the fact that there are many highly intelligent people, maybe even some more intelligent than you, whose worldview is formed because they believe in the very things that you mock.
My beliefs are just that. I can't prove them to be true and in fact I can't know them to be true in the way that we normally speak of knowing something. I frankly have very little doubt of the basic tenants of my faith, but it is a faith.
You seem to suggest that it is important that fundamentalists be shown the error of their ways. If that is your goal then I suggest that your way of going about it is counter-productive.
There are some Christian posters on this forum that cause me to cringe when I read their posts and think of them representing the beliefs that are so important to me. I don't know, but I have a hunch that there are atheists, (I assuming that is what you would call yourself), here that feel the same way about posts like this one of yours.
Regardless of what you post I will continue to respect your beliefs. Maybe you might consider the same courtesy for those who don't share your beliefs.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by hooah212002, posted 12-29-2011 7:28 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by hooah212002, posted 12-29-2011 8:32 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 207 by Tangle, posted 12-30-2011 3:31 AM GDR has not replied

  
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