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Author
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Topic: Moral high ground
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 313 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: 07-20-2006
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Message 20 of 318 (644572)
12-19-2011 8:16 AM
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Reply to: Message 15 by Chuck77
12-19-2011 4:55 AM
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Re: Nobody does Genocide better Christianity
Phat, you gotta know at your long time here at the forum that this response doesn't work with non-Christians. "No true scottsman" will be the response. People know Hitler wasn't actually doing Gods work by killing the Jews, who incidently were Gods chosen people, duh. Apparently people didn't know that. Was Martin Luther, father of Protestantism, a true Christian?
So we are even at fault in not avenging all this innocent blood of our Lord and of the Christians which they shed for three hundred years after the destruction of Jerusalem, and the blood of the children they have shed since then (which still shines forth from their eyes and their skin). We are at fault in not slaying them. --- Martin Luther, On The Lies of the Jews Since Martin Luther closed his eyes, no such son of our people has appeared again. It has been decided that we shall be the first to witness his reappearance ... I think the time is past when one may not say the names of Hitler and Luther in the same breath. They belong together; they are of the same old stamp. --- Bernhard Rust, Hitler's Minister of Education, quoted in the Volkischer Beobachter, August 25, 1933.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 15 by Chuck77, posted 12-19-2011 4:55 AM | | Chuck77 has not replied |
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 313 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: 07-20-2006
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Message 39 of 318 (644693)
12-20-2011 4:45 AM
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Reply to: Message 38 by Portillo
12-20-2011 4:32 AM
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Lets take a few examples. Lenin, Stalin, Mao, and their henchmen, in a period of 6 decades, killed 100 million people. Pol-Pot, in a period of 3 years, killed 2 million. The Inquisition which lasted 400 years, less than 2000 were killed. The Salem Witch Trials killed 19. Hold on, you seem to have a double standard here. In the religion column, you're putting only atrocities performed with an explicitly religious motivation. But in the atheism column, you're putting all atrocities when atheists were in charge. This is inconsistent. You should either blame atheism only for atheism-motivated atrocities (i.e. people put to death because they wouldn't renounce theism) in which case your figures for atheism would suddenly become much much smaller ... ... or you should put in the "religion" column every atrocity when theists were in charge, in which case you should add in (for example) the 40 million people killed by the theist Genghis Khan. You can't have it both ways. Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 38 by Portillo, posted 12-20-2011 4:32 AM | | Portillo has not replied |
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 313 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: 07-20-2006
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Re: I have some data from the Bible to put on the table
And the same applies to you, too. In "deaths caused by the non-religious", you include, in conformity with your headline, deaths caused by the non-religious * for whatever reason. But in "deaths caused by the religious" you only include deaths caused by the religious for religious motives. You include the Crusades but not World War I, in spite of the fact that both sides consisted of Christian nations with Christian leaders (oh, and the Turks, who were Muslims). Again, I would ask for a little consistency. Either you should say that (for example) the Holdomor was not a crusade for atheism, so it shouldn't be counted against atheists, or you should say that WWI was run by theists and so should be counted against them.
* Apart from the Holocaust, where you're just plain wrong. Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 29 by purpledawn, posted 12-19-2011 7:44 PM | | purpledawn has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 42 by purpledawn, posted 12-20-2011 6:51 AM | | Dr Adequate has replied |
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 313 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: 07-20-2006
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Re: Deaths
I didn't look into the reasoning for each war. And yet that is, perhaps unconsciously, how you tallied them --- blaming atheism for wars fought by atheists, but theism only for wars fought for theism.
The point of my post was that there are plenty of real deaths to tally up without resorting to stories. Indeed.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 42 by purpledawn, posted 12-20-2011 6:51 AM | | purpledawn has not replied |
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 313 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: 07-20-2006
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Message 63 of 318 (644837)
12-21-2011 4:06 AM
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Reply to: Message 59 by Chuck77
12-20-2011 7:54 PM
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What I mean by true Christian being a follower of Christ is doing what He tells us in the NT. The Great Commision, laying hands on the sick, giving people hope, living a rightoues life thru Him. Our faith in Jesus and us commiting our lives to Him will show by our actions. Sometimes we mess up but not by murdering millions of Gods chosen people. I'm not sure how that can be implied that Hitler was a follower of Christ by murdering His own people. Perhaps you could address my Martin Luther quote. Would you count the father of Protestantism as a Christian?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 59 by Chuck77, posted 12-20-2011 7:54 PM | | Chuck77 has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 65 by AdminPD, posted 12-21-2011 7:32 AM | | Dr Adequate has not replied |
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 313 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: 07-20-2006
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Message 81 of 318 (645098)
12-23-2011 7:06 AM
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Reply to: Message 78 by Chuck77
12-22-2011 1:34 AM
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I like your style. (N.B: I note that AdminPD has asked us not to respond to Chuck's post. Really? OK then --- for the first time in all these years feel free to suspend me for agreeing with a Christian.)
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 78 by Chuck77, posted 12-22-2011 1:34 AM | | Chuck77 has not replied |
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 313 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: 07-20-2006
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Message 86 of 318 (645109)
12-23-2011 9:41 AM
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Reply to: Message 84 by Portillo
12-23-2011 8:42 AM
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Re: History for dummies
Thats a relief. I was worried that those avowed atheists were killing in the name of atheism. Well, none of them were. Just as the avowed two-times-three-equals-sixists weren't killing in the name of two times three being equal to six. On the other hand, the perpetrators of World War I were killing in the name of God. Now, take a deep breath, try not to be hypocritical, and try again.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 84 by Portillo, posted 12-23-2011 8:42 AM | | Portillo has not replied |
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 313 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: 07-20-2006
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Re: Relative Death Tolls
Genesis 7 - The one who created the people destroyed the people because he didn't like their behavior. Not a religious reason. Genesis 19:26 - Lot's wife was not turned to salt for a religious reason. Sodom and Gomorrah weren't destroyed for a religious reason. Exodus 12:29 - The first born of Egypt were not killed for a religious reason. Same for the drowning in the Red Sea (Exodus 14:26-28) So, let's get this straight ... if I were to slay a bunch of people "because God wants them dead", that would be a religious reason, but if God does exactly the same thing for exactly the same reason, it isn't?
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 313 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: 07-20-2006
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Re: Relative Death Tolls
You aren't in the Bible. We are looking at the stories and the reasons for the deaths according to the stories. Give me the religious reason for the deaths within the stories you quoted. I did. "Because God wanted them dead".
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 313 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: 07-20-2006
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Message 133 of 318 (645320)
12-25-2011 11:17 PM
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Reply to: Message 128 by Portillo
12-25-2011 5:11 PM
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Re: Numbers From Fiction
My point was that most people here dont believe in the historicity of the Bible, but when it comes to atrocities, suddenly the Bible comes alive. Whereas you presumably think these atrocities were real. What should we do, split the difference? But real or not, if you think they were real, and if you're a fan of the God whom you think ordered them, then this does have a bearing on whether you occupy the moral high ground. If you're a genocide fan, that incurs the same moral odium whether or not I think the genocide actually occurred.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 128 by Portillo, posted 12-25-2011 5:11 PM | | Portillo has not replied |
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 313 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: 07-20-2006
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Re: Religious Reasons
Your response of "Because God wanted them dead" as the religious reason for the deaths, doesn't fit. In the flood story, a supreme being killed all but a few people. He brought them into the world and he took them out. There's nothing religious about it. Just because he's a supreme being doesn't make it a killing for religious reasons. According to the story how was this atrocity motivated by religion? Round and round we go ... If I killed someone "because God wants them dead", that would be a religiously motivated atrocity, wouldn't it?
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 313 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: 07-20-2006
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Re: Religious Reasons
You tell me. Yes.
If you killed someone because an atheist wants them dead, is that an atheism-motivated atrocity? No. Or, to be precise, not necessarily.
That doesn't work with the flood since God did the killing, not a person.
That doesn't work with Lot's wife since God turned her to salt, not a person.
That doesn't work for Sodom and Gomorrah since God did the killing, not a person.
That doesn't work for Er since God did the killing, not a person.
That doesn't work for all the first born in Egypt since God did the killing, not a person.
That doesn't work for the drownings in the Red Sea since God did the killing, not a person. God isn't a person now?
From your Message 39, I understood the difference to be about the actual reason for the killings ... Yes, and "God wants them dead" would be a religious reason, wouldn't it.
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 139 by purpledawn, posted 12-26-2011 8:08 AM | | Dr Adequate has not replied |
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 313 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: 07-20-2006
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Re: Relative Death Tolls
I'd say that's right. It seems silly to me to call God religious. What religion does God follow? The right one, obviously.
Too, there's the difference of the latter being self-motivation while the former is other-motivated. Isn't the whole point being motivated by something other than yourself? It's not clear.
On the other hand, I wouldn't call "because God wants them dead" a religious reasons unless its following some particular religion. "Because God wants it" is pretty much the only religious reason, in the last analysis. When religious people refer to something else, e.g. "Because the Bible says so", they're only doing that because they suppose the Bible is instructions from God telling them what he wants.
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 313 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: 07-20-2006
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Re: Relative Death Tolls
So he worships himself? I think he has angels to do that for him.
Wouldn't a religious atrocity be one that was motivated by a religion? By religious beliefs, yes.
So, to me, Protillo seems to be referring to some claim made by Hitch regarding religion killing more peope than atheism, or something like that. Are you aware of anything like that from Hitch? No, but he might have.
You're using definition 1 and I'm using 2 so it makes sense that we're talking past each other. Well, the religious beliefs referred to in 2 mostly seem to take the form "God thinks this", "God wants that", "God would like me to put the following group to death ..."
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 313 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: 07-20-2006
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Re: Relative Death Tolls
Then how is he the one that's religious? The belief that God should be worshiped is a religious belief. Would you claim that God is irreligious?
I think it'd help if we knew what was being referred to. That's up to Portillo.
So, since you have god as religious, you'd imagine him going: "hrm, I wonder what I would think that I should do. Oh, I bet its this. I better follow what I want, so I'm gonna do that. Hooray. All praise to me." ? I don't see that doubt as to God's will is necessary to religion. Did Moses stop being religious just because he was getting his instructions from the horses mouth?
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