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Author Topic:   Moral high ground
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 132 of 318 (645319)
12-25-2011 11:10 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by anglagard
12-19-2011 11:47 PM


Re: Taiping Rebellion, ad infinitum
anglagard writes:
You forgot the Taiping Rebellion, no biggie, everyone seems to forget the Taiping Rebellion for some reason.
Only killed 20 million at least, number 5 in all deaths caused by war, obviously influenced by Hong Xiuquan's interpretation of the work of Christian Missionaries.
This is a strawman; apples & oranges.
First, scores of wars involved religious aspects. Did you even read what your own Wiki link said about these wars and the number killed in them?
quote:
Death toll
Most accurate sources put the total deaths during the 15 years of the rebellion at about 20-30 million civilians and soldiers.[1][8] Most of the deaths were attributed to plague and famine. At the Third Battle of Nanking in 1864, more than 100,000 were killed in three days.
The rebellion happened at roughly the same time as the American Civil War. Though almost certainly the largest civil war of the 19th century (in terms of numbers under arms), it is debatable whether the Taiping Rebellion involved more soldiers than the Napoleonic Wars earlier in the century, and so it is uncertain whether it should be considered the largest war of the 19th century.[citation needed]
This civil war led by a heterodox Christian convert. He, like so many pseudo professing Christians, acted counter to the tenets of Jesus and the apostles of the NT.
Neither war troop casualties, tallied on both sides of a war or famines, etc, come under the definition of genocide.
OTOH, RCC bloody perpetrators of the Inquisitions brutally tortured and murdered so many protesting true Christians who refused to recant and become subservient to the authority of the popes and bishops of Rome.
Pious appearing despots professing Christianity persist in practices opposite to apostolic principles. They are as the religious Pharisees and Sadducee's, who Jesus soundly denounced as murderous snakes and vipers.
The proponents of the fallacy that Christianity has been responsible for genocide have been posting mis-characterizations about true Christians and true Christianity.
Relentless rants of several forum posters, regarding atrocities perpetrated under orders of ruthless rulers, wrongfully target real Christian followers of Christ and Christianity, respecting doctrines of scripture.
quote:
The Taiping Rebellion was a widespread civil war in southern China from 1850 to 1864, led by heterodox Christian convert Hong Xiuquan against the ruling Manchu-led Qing Dynasty. About 20 million people died, mainly civilians, in one of the deadliest military conflicts in history.[1]
You can click on the term, heterodox in your link, in which the following definition of the term is stated.
quote:
Heterodoxy is generally defined as "any opinions or doctrines at variance with an official or orthodox position".[1] As an adjective, heterodox is commonly used to describe a subject as "characterized by departure from accepted beliefs or standards" (status quo). Under this definition the noun heterodoxy is synonymous with unorthodoxy, while the adjective heterodox is synonymous with dissident.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by anglagard, posted 12-19-2011 11:47 PM anglagard has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by jar, posted 12-26-2011 9:10 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 142 of 318 (645342)
12-26-2011 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by jar
12-26-2011 9:10 AM


Re: Papal Inquisitions
jar writes:
Buz writes:
OTOH, RCC bloody perpetrators of the Inquisitions brutally tortured and murdered so many protesting true Christians who refused to recant and become subservient to the authority of the popes and bishops of Rome.
Buz, during the Inquisitions the only Christians involved were Roman Catholics. There were no "true Christians" other than the Roman Catholics in the West.
Read Foxes Book of Martyrs. There were many non-Catholic true believers who were non-violent persecuted people who refused to recant and subject themselves to the Roman Catholic Popes and Bishops.
Anyone, Roman Catholic, Jew, Muslim or professing Christian who dared practice or propagate any doctrines contrary to that of the RCC were persecuted and/or executed. Nor were they allowed to interpret scripture other than that of the popes and bishops.
In Central and South America this sort of inquisition was applied up into the 19th and 20th century. I remember back in the 1950s and 60s when lives of protestant missionaries were in grave danger in nations like Columbia, Peru, etc by the actions of the priests and bishops who inflamed their adherents to forbid the preaching of the evangelical gospel.
No practicing Roman Catholics were brutally tortured and burned alive at the stake by the Roman hierarchy during the Inquisitions.
quote:
Although early Christians experienced heavy persecution, by the Middle Ages, the Catholic Church had significant religious and political power in Europe. To maintain its authority, the Church suppressed heretics. The Church had a very specific definition of heresy: A heretic publicly declared his beliefs (based upon what the Church considered inaccurate interpretations of the Bible) and refused to denounce them, even after being corrected by the authority. He also tried to teach his beliefs to other people. He had to be doing these things by his own free will, not under the influence of the devil.
The Inquisition officially began with Pope Gregory XI (the Papal Inquisition). In 1231, he issued a bull, or decree, that set up a tribunal court system to try heretics and punish them. He chose the Dominican Order, known for being very well-educated and knowledgeable about complex theology, to conduct the Inquisition.
The Spanish Inquisition was unique in that it was established by secular rulers,

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by jar, posted 12-26-2011 9:10 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by jar, posted 12-26-2011 11:13 AM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied
 Message 145 by Theodoric, posted 12-26-2011 11:32 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 225 of 318 (645872)
12-30-2011 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 224 by hooah212002
12-30-2011 8:54 PM


Re: Group Comparisons
hooah writes:
When you have people who say "without god, there would be no morals/people would go around killing/if I didn't have jesus I would go around killing and raping", all you need to do is point out the atrocities in the name of religion and say "see, these people had jesus/god/whatever and still did bad shit" and that is enough to say that it matters not whether they believed in some god. In order for some group of people to claim the moral high ground, they have to actually be more moral as a whole than the group they claim to be more moral than. What you are saying would be like saying Jeffery Dahmer was a good guy because maybe one time he did something good.
I really can see why it is hard for you guys to take off your rose coloured glasses and see your religion for what it truly is. What a life changing event it must be to admonish your fairy tale beliefs.
Ok, Hooah, let's do some comparisons.
Group one: Regular Sunday go meetin fundi NT believers who pray regularly, read the Bible daily, work, attend religious functions often; i.e. your hated Biblio-fundies.
Group two. Rabble rousing pleasure seeking, non-working ne-er go to church, ne-er read a Bible, bunny hopper sex practitioners of about any and all who one can entice, regular bar customers, pot smoking, street occupiers, infrequently home, etc.
Group three: Shariah practicing, go-by-the Koran, Haddith & Sunnahs, majority in Iran, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Syria, etc,
Group four: Old Soviet Union leaders, police, atheistic minded military, politician, non church going, secularistic, etc.
Group five. Secularist college student
Group six: Mexican RRC oriented, non-Biblicalistic, city dweller
Group seven: Wall Street Occupiers
Group eight: Gay rightists seeking marriage perks, etc
Group nine: Ultra liberal Democrats
Group ten: RCC/Voodoo practicing Haitian etc.
Group eleven. Folks who use vulgar and rough speech, cursing, etc. or folks who never curse, never practice what would be considered rough and vulgar speech.
So on and so forth.
Hooah, which one of these groups would have an equal or higher incidence of doing harm to someone, theft, murder, arrests, living in poverty, dependent on government perks, etc rather than providing for themselves, non productive, getting in scraps, fights, violent acts etc, etc?
Pray tell, which, Hooah?

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by hooah212002, posted 12-30-2011 8:54 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by hooah212002, posted 12-30-2011 10:16 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 228 by Omnivorous, posted 12-30-2011 10:40 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 229 by hooah212002, posted 12-30-2011 10:52 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 230 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-30-2011 11:42 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 235 by nwr, posted 12-31-2011 12:47 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 237 by anglagard, posted 12-31-2011 2:42 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 240 by NoNukes, posted 12-31-2011 5:01 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


(3)
Message 241 of 318 (645949)
12-31-2011 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by hooah212002
12-30-2011 10:16 PM


Re: Group Comparisons
hooah writes:
I don't agree with your "groups" and how you grouped them together. To be honest, I didn't read your post past group two.
I.E. Hooah refuses to admit that group one, whom he detests, comprises of a culture's best, least troublesome and most productive citizens, as per group comparisons.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by hooah212002, posted 12-30-2011 10:16 PM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 242 of 318 (645952)
12-31-2011 9:20 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by NoNukes
12-31-2011 5:01 PM


Re: Group Comparisons
NoNukes writes:
Which of these groups of people is more likely to have a member who would bomb an abortion clinic, the 1996 Olympics, a church with four nine year old girls attending Sunday school, or to lynch a black man for whistling at a white woman, author the Turner diaries, have sex with underage male parish members while operating a ministry aimed at converting homosexuals to heterosexuals, bilk millions of dollars out of followers with a time share pyramid scheme, .
Of course after they do these things, we decide that they were never real Christians.
NoNukes, you need to go back and reread my description of group one. None of the above fit the description of that group.
You need to understand that we're talking by and large, as well. By and large none of the other groups hold a candle, so to speak, to group one. A dozen or so, a class group of millions does not comprise.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by NoNukes, posted 12-31-2011 5:01 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 243 of 318 (645953)
12-31-2011 9:32 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by anglagard
12-31-2011 2:42 AM


Re: Group Comparisons
anglagard writes:
Buzsaw writes:
Group one: Regular Sunday go meetin fundi NT believers who pray regularly, read the Bible daily, work, attend religious functions often; i.e. your hated Biblio-fundies.
What a perfect description of Hong Xiuquan, #5 in the sweepstakes for an individual responsible for the most deaths in human history.
How far fetched can you get, Anglagard? You're totally off the wire, applying one single strawman, having no resemblence of my description of group one, comprising of millions.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by anglagard, posted 12-31-2011 2:42 AM anglagard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by anglagard, posted 01-03-2012 1:37 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
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