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Author Topic:   Moral high ground
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 46 of 318 (644722)
12-20-2011 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by jar
12-20-2011 10:15 AM


Re: Genocide is more than just killing.
All of the territory that is the US today was taken by genocide as well as all of South America, and in both cases one of the dominate tools used was Christianity and the forced imposition of Western Christianity to replace whatever cultures, religions, national identities that existed.
If political powers use religion as a tool to overtake a people, is it really that religion that caused all the killing?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by jar, posted 12-20-2011 10:15 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by jar, posted 12-20-2011 10:24 AM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 48 by subbie, posted 12-20-2011 10:32 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34115
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 47 of 318 (644725)
12-20-2011 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by New Cat's Eye
12-20-2011 10:18 AM


Re: Genocide is more than just killing.
Yes, if that is the tool used then the religion must assume responsibility.
Christianity has a long and very successful history of destroying or subverting the religions, places of worship, cultures, dress, languages and practices of others.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-20-2011 10:18 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-20-2011 10:33 AM jar has replied
 Message 64 by Larni, posted 12-21-2011 4:39 AM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1360 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 48 of 318 (644726)
12-20-2011 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by New Cat's Eye
12-20-2011 10:18 AM


Re: Genocide is more than just killing.
If political powers use religion as a tool and members of that religion allow that use, then the religion is at least complicit, if not responsible.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-20-2011 10:18 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-20-2011 10:37 AM subbie has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 49 of 318 (644727)
12-20-2011 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by jar
12-20-2011 10:24 AM


Re: Genocide is more than just killing.
Yes, if that is the tool used then the religion must assume responsibility.
Like how my keyboard is responsible for my spelling errors?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by jar, posted 12-20-2011 10:24 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by jar, posted 12-20-2011 10:39 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 318 (644729)
12-20-2011 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by subbie
12-20-2011 10:32 AM


Re: Genocide is more than just killing.
If political powers use religion as a tool and members of that religion allow that use, then the religion is at least complicit, if not responsible.
I do think complicit is a better word than responsible.
Would you blame the North Korean people and their religion for being responsible for the position their in? Are they really even complicit? Or have they been forced?
Not that christians needed that much forcing, but you can draw a line somewhere.
Edited by Catholic Scientist, : spelling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by subbie, posted 12-20-2011 10:32 AM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by subbie, posted 12-20-2011 10:47 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34115
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 51 of 318 (644730)
12-20-2011 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by New Cat's Eye
12-20-2011 10:33 AM


Re: Genocide is more than just killing.
Probably not, unless you intended to make the spallin arrors.
That wass an accident I hope, but the use of religion was intentional and accepted as a desired goal.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-20-2011 10:33 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-20-2011 10:41 AM jar has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 318 (644731)
12-20-2011 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by jar
12-20-2011 10:39 AM


Re: Genocide is more than just killing.
but the use of religion was intentional and accepted as a desired goal.
It was, in some cases, but what about the ones I'm talking about?
The ones where a political power uses a religion as a tool... I wouldn't call the religion responsible for that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by jar, posted 12-20-2011 10:39 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by jar, posted 12-20-2011 10:52 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1360 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 53 of 318 (644733)
12-20-2011 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by New Cat's Eye
12-20-2011 10:37 AM


Re: Genocide is more than just killing.
Certainly, whether the people have the liberty to act or not should be a factor in determining the level of responsibility they have. In the U.S., people have always had the freedom to at least speak up and condemn governmental acts they disapprove of. The vast majority of Christians were either supportive of or at least not vocally opposed to governmental reliance on Christianity as a justification for the subjugation and killing of native americans.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-20-2011 10:37 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-21-2011 11:48 AM subbie has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34115
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 54 of 318 (644735)
12-20-2011 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by New Cat's Eye
12-20-2011 10:41 AM


Re: Genocide is more than just killing.
I certainly would when the religious folk were active and willing participants and in many cases one of the driving forces as in the case of the destruction of all other cultures in the US.
One particularly dark example is what happened in Hawaii.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-20-2011 10:41 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10187
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 55 of 318 (644768)
12-20-2011 2:26 PM


"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."--Steven Weinberg, quoted in The New York Times, April 20, 1999

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 90 days)
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(4)
Message 56 of 318 (644794)
12-20-2011 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Portillo
12-20-2011 4:32 AM


the moral claims of atheism
Lets take a few examples. Lenin, Stalin, Mao, and their henchmen, in a period of 6 decades, killed 100 million people.
Atheistic regimes have killed over 100 million people.
Atheism does not claim that it is a system of morality that should be revered, respected, or that its arbiters should be worshipped. On the other hand, there are plenty of religious folk that do make such claims, and the evidence seems weighted against them.
Atheism may help us avoid making certain moral mistakes (ie., the religious ones) it does not claim to be a complete cure. It has no moral teachings or positions, it is simply a lack of belief in gods and by extension a rejection of moral systems with objective divine arbiters. There are still plenty of morally abhorrent things a person can believe while also not believing in gods.
The real enemy is dogma, held to be true without supporting evidence, that if true would mean we have to act in a certain way. Religion doesn't have a complete monopoly on dogma, but it has secured itself a pretty big chunk of the market.
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Portillo, posted 12-20-2011 4:32 AM Portillo has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3397 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 57 of 318 (644795)
12-20-2011 5:55 PM


Ok, to phat and chuck, what about all the self-proclaimed christians who proclaimed that Obama was spending $200 million a day in India, even after the mainstream press debunked this claim. I seem to remember something about bearing false witness in one of the 10 commandments.
So, again, do you guys think these people are true christians?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1rvnN1RNtY
Added by edit.
I'm just having a lot of trouble understanding what you guys mean by true christian if all the true christian representatives out there have no problem bearing false witness.
Edited by Taz, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Modulous, posted 12-20-2011 6:46 PM Taz has replied
 Message 59 by Chuck77, posted 12-20-2011 7:54 PM Taz has replied

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 90 days)
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 58 of 318 (644799)
12-20-2011 6:46 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Taz
12-20-2011 5:55 PM


I'm just having a lot of trouble understanding what you guys mean by true christian
A true Christian is a moral person, of course. All examples of immoral people are either not true Christians or Christians with temporary human failings as they succumb to sin (the latter group can often be identified by their notpologies when they do bad things).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Taz, posted 12-20-2011 5:55 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Taz, posted 12-21-2011 2:28 AM Modulous has replied

  
Chuck77
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 59 of 318 (644802)
12-20-2011 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Taz
12-20-2011 5:55 PM


What I mean by true Christian being a follower of Christ is doing what He tells us in the NT. The Great Commision, laying hands on the sick, giving people hope, living a rightoues life thru Him. Our faith in Jesus and us commiting our lives to Him will show by our actions. Sometimes we mess up but not by murdering millions of Gods chosen people. I'm not sure how that can be implied that Hitler was a follower of Christ by murdering His own people.
Doing good works doesn't make us a Christian but is a byproduct. You can still be saved on your deathbed without the good works but as far a knowing if someone is a Christian a good guage is how they live their lives.
I can't know who is a true Christian by just what they say but by what they do. "ye shall know them by their fruits". Hitlers' fruits weren't Christlike. We know that by what Jesus taught.
Edited by Chuck77, : No reason given.
Edited by Chuck77, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Taz, posted 12-20-2011 5:55 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Taz, posted 12-21-2011 2:26 AM Chuck77 has replied
 Message 63 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-21-2011 4:06 AM Chuck77 has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3397 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 60 of 318 (644829)
12-21-2011 2:26 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Chuck77
12-20-2011 7:54 PM


So, do you think all the christians who bore false witness against Obama are true christians or not? I'm not talking about hitler. He's dead and we can never know his true intentions. I'm talking about live people here.
Do you think people like GWB, who very vocally supported the criminalization of homosexuality. Yeah, it was finally declared unconstitutional in 2002 by the US supreme court. Answer directly. Do you think criminalizing homosexuality is christ-like or not?
Do you think Michele Bachmann is a true christian or not? She bore false witness against Obama when she kept insisting to the world Obama's trip to Asia cost $200 million a day. What about Rush Limbaugh?
Remember what I said about dodging the question with verbose? Don't do that. I'm not even asking for a fact. I'm asking for your opinion. According to your standard, are these people true christians?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Chuck77, posted 12-20-2011 7:54 PM Chuck77 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Chuck77, posted 12-22-2011 1:34 AM Taz has replied

  
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