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Author Topic:   Moral high ground
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 76 of 318 (644932)
12-21-2011 4:23 PM


Sorry guys, I've changed my mind. I don't want to type about this shit.

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 914 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


(1)
Message 77 of 318 (644955)
12-21-2011 6:34 PM


Would he have done it without religion?
Canada "honor killings" on trial
Having daughters that acted like normal Canadian teenagers made Shafia furious, the jury has heard. The girls Zainab, 19, Sahar, 17, and Geeti, 13 dressed in short skirts and flirted with boys
........
"They committed treason from beginning to end, Shafia told the other two accused during one conversation in the car. They betrayed humankind, they betrayed Islam, they betrayed our religion and creed, they betrayed our tradition, they betrayed everything.

Put the FSM back in Chrifsmas

  
Chuck77
Inactive Member


Message 78 of 318 (644973)
12-22-2011 1:34 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Taz
12-21-2011 2:26 AM


Taz writes:
So, do you think all the christians who bore false witness against Obama are true christians or not?
No idea Taz. Just because people call themselves Christians doesn't make them so. I don't know any of these people. Do you?
Do you think people like GWB, who very vocally supported the criminalization of homosexuality. Yeah, it was finally declared unconstitutional in 2002 by the US supreme court. Answer directly.
Yes sir Taz sir. Do you want me to get down and give you twenty?
As far as GWB if we're going soley based on his presidency it's hard to say. . As far as his personal life goes I don't know. If we go by what he did for the 8 yrs it's hard to say he was a follower of Jesus but I don't know.
Do you think criminalizing homosexuality is christ-like or not?
No, I don't. Just as much as I don't think criminalizing gossip is Christllike either.
Do you think Michele Bachmann is a true christian or not?
Don't know who she is. Don't follow politics. I'll read up on her and let you know.
What about Rush Limbaugh?
He certainly slanders a lot of people doesn't he? Would Jesus slander all those people? No He wouldn't. It's hard to say he is a follower of Jesus but I don't know.
Remember what I said about dodging the question with verbose? Don't do that.
Yes sir Taz sir. I hope I have answered to your liking so far. Have mercy on me sir.
I'm not even asking for a fact. I'm asking for your opinion. According to your standard, are these people true christians?
For the record Tazmania, I have no clue what these people are. Christian or not, saved or not. I can only go buy what I see and what we see isn't always reality. This is just my opinion based on what we know of them, obviously.
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD
Edited by Chuck77, : No reason given.
Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Taz, posted 12-21-2011 2:26 AM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Taz, posted 12-22-2011 10:17 AM Chuck77 has not replied
 Message 81 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-23-2011 7:06 AM Chuck77 has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3404 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


(2)
(1)
Message 79 of 318 (645006)
12-22-2011 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by Chuck77
12-22-2011 1:34 AM


Chuck77 writes:
No idea Taz. Just because people call themselves Christians doesn't make them so. I don't know any of these people. Do you?
Let me rephrase the question. Do you vote for these people or not? Do you watch and endorse fox news or not?
As far as GWB if we're going soley based on his presidency it's hard to say. . As far as his personal life goes I don't know. If we go by what he did for the 8 yrs it's hard to say he was a follower of Jesus but I don't know.
Well, gee, you didn't really answer the question.
GWB all his life has very forwardly advocated throwing gay people into jail for being gay. The only reason he stopped advocating such laws (publically anyway) is because in 2002 the US supreme court finally declared such law unconstitutional.
So, let me rephrase the question. Did you vote for GWB or not? Do you think GWB is a true christian?
I have no clue what these people are.
They claim to speak for you, the christian right. And you don't know what they stand for? Am I the only one who thinks there's something wrong with this moral high ground stance?
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Chuck77, posted 12-22-2011 1:34 AM Chuck77 has not replied

  
Butterflytyrant
Member (Idle past 4534 days)
Posts: 415
From: Australia
Joined: 06-28-2011


(1)
Message 80 of 318 (645095)
12-23-2011 6:35 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by purpledawn
12-20-2011 7:27 AM


Re: I have some data from the Bible to put on the table
PD,
As was your source for Bible Deaths, which at least they were looking at deaths mentioned in the Bible and not comparing it to reality.
There are no fully credible sources that discuss the death toll in the bible. Religious sources ignore it. Non religious sources believe it is a work of fiction so dont really bother counting. The only avenue left is blogs and forum pages.
History however does have academic sources. The reason you did not use an academic source is because you would not have found one that supports your opinion.
In order to find a page that does support your opinion, you had to find a blog written by an evangelical christian.
I agree with you that the bible is not reality. However, I realise that I am not the only person in the world. You need to understand that you are also not the only person in the world.
You are aware that there are a lot of pople on your side who believe that the bible is a record of reality dont you?
According to a Gallup poll, 3 in 10 Americans believe this. Thats somewhere around 95 million people.
(Source: In U.S., 3 in 10 Say They Take the Bible Literally )
From my experience, the people who lean towards the religious moral high ground claim also lean towards the idea that the bible should be taken as a recording of reality.
Because of this, I will include the deaths in the bible. For you personally, these deaths dont count because your personal opinion is that the bible is not a recording of reality. For others who do not share your position (they do exist) the deaths in the bible need to be addressed.
You are making assumptions about me personally that you have no basis for. Please argue the position and not the person.
The only assumption that I have made is that you, in some way, worship the christian god as mentioned in the New Testemant. The basis of this assumption comes from reading your posts including one where you discussed having your prayers answered.Message 116. But then in other posts you seem to state that you do not believe Message 40. Let me know which it is so I dont have to make any more assumptions.
Also, I was argueing the position. The position you have as stated in your next sentence -
quote:
My position is that there are plenty of real wars and skirmishes with or without religious or atheistic intent to draw from without resorting to the stories of the Bible.
My response - Many people believe that the bible is true.
The Bible is not an historical book.
I know that and you know that. Other people on this forum do not agree and they will need to address the deaths in the Bible.
My position has nothing to do with who has killed more, just didn't want you padding the numbers.
So in order to make sure I did not pad the numbers, you padded the numbers in my oppositions favour?

I could agree with you, but then we would both be wrong
Butterfly, AKA, mallethead - Dawn Bertot
"Superstitions and nonsense from the past should not prevent us from making progress. If we hold ourselves back, we admit that our fears are more powerful than our abilities." Hunters of Dune Herbert & Anderson
2011 leading candidate for the EvC Forum Don Quixote award

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by purpledawn, posted 12-20-2011 7:27 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by purpledawn, posted 12-23-2011 8:23 AM Butterflytyrant has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 397 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 81 of 318 (645098)
12-23-2011 7:06 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by Chuck77
12-22-2011 1:34 AM


I like your style.
(N.B: I note that AdminPD has asked us not to respond to Chuck's post. Really? OK then --- for the first time in all these years feel free to suspend me for agreeing with a Christian.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Chuck77, posted 12-22-2011 1:34 AM Chuck77 has not replied

  
Butterflytyrant
Member (Idle past 4534 days)
Posts: 415
From: Australia
Joined: 06-28-2011


Message 82 of 318 (645100)
12-23-2011 7:31 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Portillo
12-20-2011 4:32 AM


History for dummies
Portillo,
Lets take a few examples. Lenin, Stalin, Mao, and their henchmen, in a period of 6 decades, killed 100 million people. Pol-Pot, in a period of 3 years, killed 2 million.
None of these deaths can be attributed to atheism. Use wikipedia. It will give you an overview of the examples you have provided. The cheif motivations in your examples are -
Lenin - Overthrow of capitalism through communist revolution
Stalin - Maintenance of Stalins communist rule. Paranoia and distrust.
Mao - Rapid transformation from agrarian economy to communist society. Rapid industrialisation.
Pol Pot - Forced conversion on Cambodian society to agrarian socialism.
The Inquisition - full title : Inquisitio Haereticae Pravitatis or inquiry on heretical perversity. Roman catholic organisation. Torture and executions for heresy.
The Salem Witch Trials - Trials and executions for breaking christian laws regarding witchcraft.
Can you spot the ones that are religiouly motivated?
again, use wiki for more info.
Let me make this clear so that Im never misunderstood. I dont think I have a moral superiority to anyone.
Good. Thats one down.
I am sick. Sick from sin and Jesus is my hospital.
It is very sad that you feel that way. Created sick then commanded to be well...
"Once you assume a creator and a plan, it makes us objects, in a cruel experiment, whereby we are created sick, and commanded to be well ... And over us, to supervise this, is installed a celestial dictatorship, a kind of divine North Korea. Greedy, exigent, greedy for uncritical phrase from dawn until dusk and swift to punish the original sin with which it so tenderly gifted us in the very first place."
Christopher Hitchens

I could agree with you, but then we would both be wrong
Butterfly, AKA, mallethead - Dawn Bertot
"Superstitions and nonsense from the past should not prevent us from making progress. If we hold ourselves back, we admit that our fears are more powerful than our abilities." Hunters of Dune Herbert & Anderson
2011 leading candidate for the EvC Forum Don Quixote award

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Portillo, posted 12-20-2011 4:32 AM Portillo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Portillo, posted 12-23-2011 8:42 AM Butterflytyrant has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3569 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 83 of 318 (645104)
12-23-2011 8:23 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by Butterflytyrant
12-23-2011 6:35 AM


Believing Doesn't Make it Fact
The reason I used that site is because it was the first one I hit and I knew a religious source would annoy you.
As I said, my opinion and position is that the Bible is not a realiable source for facts on deaths concerning this topic.
It doesn't matter if people believe a story is reality, that doesn't make it reality. If one is looking to compare real deaths, then the Bible is not an appropriate source for facts, unless you want to try and prove the deaths really happened and the numbers are correct.
Out of 312,822,000 people the Gallup people questioned 1018 and they didn't ask them if they thought the Bible was fact. This is from the bottom of the page you linked to. In U.S., 3 in 10 Say They Take the Bible Literally
Which of the following statements comes closest to describing your views about the Bible -- the Bible is the actual word of God and is to be taken literally, word for word, the Bible is the inspired word of God but not everything in it should be taken literally, or the Bible is an ancient book of fables, legends, history, and moral precepts recorded by man?
Literal and true are not synonyms. Literal and fact are not synonyms. Reading a fictional story literally, doesn't mean one believes the story is real.
Literal means using the original, basic meaning of a word. No metaphors or symbolism, etc.
If one says it is raining cats and dogs and the listener takes that literally, that doesn't mean it is actually raining cats and dogs. It just means the listener thinks you are saying that it is raining cats and dogs as opposed to water.
quote:
The only assumption that I have made is that you, in some way, worship the christian god as mentioned in the New Testemant. The basis of this assumption comes from reading your posts including one where you discussed having your prayers answered.Message 116. But then in other posts you seem to state that you do not believe Message 40. Let me know which it is so I dont have to make any more assumptions.
Wow, my first few posts and you still didn't understand them. Stop trying to make assumptions about me personally. Deal with the position I present in the post.
Unless you can prove the Bible is a factual source, then it isn't a viable source for this discussion on deaths.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Butterflytyrant, posted 12-23-2011 6:35 AM Butterflytyrant has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Butterflytyrant, posted 12-23-2011 10:35 AM purpledawn has replied

  
Portillo
Member (Idle past 4273 days)
Posts: 258
Joined: 11-14-2010


Message 84 of 318 (645106)
12-23-2011 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Butterflytyrant
12-23-2011 7:31 AM


Re: History for dummies
quote:
Lenin - Overthrow of capitalism through communist revolution
Stalin - Maintenance of Stalins communist rule. Paranoia and distrust.
Thats a relief. I was worried that those avowed atheists were killing in the name of atheism.

And the conspiracy was strong, for the people increased continually - 2 Samuel 15:12

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Butterflytyrant, posted 12-23-2011 7:31 AM Butterflytyrant has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Tangle, posted 12-23-2011 9:08 AM Portillo has not replied
 Message 86 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-23-2011 9:41 AM Portillo has not replied
 Message 88 by Butterflytyrant, posted 12-23-2011 10:40 AM Portillo has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9538
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 85 of 318 (645108)
12-23-2011 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Portillo
12-23-2011 8:42 AM


Re: History for dummies
Portillo writes:
Thats a relief. I was worried that those avowed atheists were killing in the name of atheism.
That's as daft as claiming that because they all have facial hair, that they killed in the name of Moustaches. Perhaps they all read Jane Austin or collected stamps too? Maybe they all had grandfather's whose favourite colour was red?

Life, don't talk to me about life.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Portillo, posted 12-23-2011 8:42 AM Portillo has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 397 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 86 of 318 (645109)
12-23-2011 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Portillo
12-23-2011 8:42 AM


Re: History for dummies
Thats a relief. I was worried that those avowed atheists were killing in the name of atheism.
Well, none of them were. Just as the avowed two-times-three-equals-sixists weren't killing in the name of two times three being equal to six.
On the other hand, the perpetrators of World War I were killing in the name of God.
Now, take a deep breath, try not to be hypocritical, and try again.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Portillo, posted 12-23-2011 8:42 AM Portillo has not replied

  
Butterflytyrant
Member (Idle past 4534 days)
Posts: 415
From: Australia
Joined: 06-28-2011


(1)
Message 87 of 318 (645110)
12-23-2011 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by purpledawn
12-23-2011 8:23 AM


Re: Believing Doesn't Make it Fact
PD,
Wow, my first few posts and you still didn't understand them. Stop trying to make assumptions about me personally. Deal with the position I present in the post.
Unless you can prove the Bible is a factual source, then it isn't a viable source for this discussion on deaths.
This is your reply to a post where I request that you state your position, I said -
Let me know which it is so I dont have to make any more assumptions.
I have asked you to state your position so that assumptions need not be made and you decide to dance instead.
I have dealt with the position you present.
Was I unclear when I dealt with your position in Message 80?
So you are complaining that I am making assumptions an not dealing with your post in reply to a post of mine where I request that you state your position and I deal with your your post?
I will run through it again, correct me if I am wrong.
your position as stated in Message 44
My position is that there are plenty of real wars and skirmishes with or without religious or atheistic intent to draw from without resorting to the stories of the Bible.
Me recognising and dealing with your position from Message 80
your position - The Bible is not an historical book.
my reply - I know that and you know that. Other people on this forum do not agree and they will need to address the deaths in the Bible.
Unless you can prove the Bible is a factual source, then it isn't a viable source for this discussion on deaths.
One more time with feeling.
You have stated your position. You have stated that you do not believe that the bible is a a factual document. That means that you no longer have to discuss this element of the debate. You have already covered your position and have no more to say on that oarticular subject. Fine. Great. Gold star for you. You have stated your position and no longer need to discuss it anymore.
The people who do need to deal with the deaths of the bible are those who believe that the bible is a factual document.
You do not believe that the bible is a factual document so this excludes you. get it? or do you need to post another comment stating exactly the same thing?
let me put it another way...
If you do not believe that the bible is a historical document, then you do not need to respond to the post regarding deaths in the bible.
How is that? get it now?

I could agree with you, but then we would both be wrong
Butterfly, AKA, mallethead - Dawn Bertot
"Superstitions and nonsense from the past should not prevent us from making progress. If we hold ourselves back, we admit that our fears are more powerful than our abilities." Hunters of Dune Herbert & Anderson
2011 leading candidate for the EvC Forum Don Quixote award

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by purpledawn, posted 12-23-2011 8:23 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by purpledawn, posted 12-23-2011 11:46 AM Butterflytyrant has replied

  
Butterflytyrant
Member (Idle past 4534 days)
Posts: 415
From: Australia
Joined: 06-28-2011


(1)
Message 88 of 318 (645111)
12-23-2011 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Portillo
12-23-2011 8:42 AM


Re: History for dummies
Portillo,
Thats a relief. I was worried that those avowed atheists were killing in the name of atheism.
was that a rebuttal?
Or was that you throwing something out there hoping that some of the lurkers will be ignorant as fuck and believe that you may actually have a point?

I could agree with you, but then we would both be wrong
Butterfly, AKA, mallethead - Dawn Bertot
"Superstitions and nonsense from the past should not prevent us from making progress. If we hold ourselves back, we admit that our fears are more powerful than our abilities." Hunters of Dune Herbert & Anderson
2011 leading candidate for the EvC Forum Don Quixote award

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Portillo, posted 12-23-2011 8:42 AM Portillo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Portillo, posted 12-23-2011 4:43 PM Butterflytyrant has replied
 Message 93 by AdminPD, posted 12-23-2011 5:23 PM Butterflytyrant has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3569 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 89 of 318 (645118)
12-23-2011 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by Butterflytyrant
12-23-2011 10:35 AM


Re: Believing Doesn't Make it Fact
quote:
So you are complaining that I am making assumptions an not dealing with your post in reply to a post of mine where I request that you state your position and I deal with your your post?
Not complaining just saying you need to stop making assumptions about me personally. Stick to the position presented concerning the topic. I didn't say you didn't address the position I presented concerning the topic.
quote:
If you do not believe that the bible is a historical document, then you do not need to respond to the post regarding deaths in the bible.
This thread isn't about deaths in the Bible. From your OP it is more about deaths in the real world.
I say the Bible isn't a source of real data for deaths and you feel you are justified in using the Bible as a source of data to support your position because others believe it is factual or historical.
Although you agree in Message 80 that the Bible is not reality, you still feel justified in using the numbers because some believe it is true.
Butterflytyrant writes:
Because of this, I will include the deaths in the bible. For you personally, these deaths dont count because your personal opinion is that the bible is not a recording of reality. For others who do not share your position (they do exist) the deaths in the bible need to be addressed.
Believing something is factual doesn't make it so. You using the numbers because someone else believes they are real doesn't make them factual either.
In this thread the Bible deaths aren't valid additions to the body count.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Butterflytyrant, posted 12-23-2011 10:35 AM Butterflytyrant has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Butterflytyrant, posted 12-23-2011 8:11 PM purpledawn has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3404 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 90 of 318 (645123)
12-23-2011 12:41 PM


How the hell is talking about christian moral superior attitude not on topic in a moral high ground thread?
I'm trying to push some christian members here to state clearly why they think certain christian stances (like throwing the gheys in jail) are morally superior.

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by AdminPD, posted 12-23-2011 3:05 PM Taz has not replied

  
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