Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,806 Year: 3,063/9,624 Month: 908/1,588 Week: 91/223 Day: 2/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Scriptural evidence that Jesus is Messiah:
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 75 of 304 (660776)
04-29-2012 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Archangel
04-29-2012 10:43 AM


Re: Horse meat, nothing but horse meat.
Hi Archangel,
This aspect of the prophecy has not yet occurred
Then it's not a fulfilled prophecy.
Simple really.
Mutate and Survive

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Archangel, posted 04-29-2012 10:43 AM Archangel has not replied

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


(1)
Message 209 of 304 (674641)
10-01-2012 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 206 by jaywill
10-01-2012 10:09 AM


Hi jaywill,
I think you're being rather unreasonable here.
After all, just because someone does not think that any fulfilled prophecy exists, doesn't mean that they will never believe it. If someone is genuinely of the opinion that no fulfilled prophecy has been shown to exist, you need to take them at their word, not assume that their lack of belief is due to bias. That is bad faith on your part and no way to conduct a discussion.
Consider;
Can you show me any genuine examples of alien abduction? No? If not, I will have to conclude that you are biased against aliens. Clearly no example could be good enough for you.
Can you show me a real example of fairies being photographed at the bottom of someone's garden? Just one or two? No? Then I shall assume that you are simply being closed minded because you hate fairies.
Can you show me an example of a purely Islamic prophecy which has been fulfilled? If not, then I have no choice but to judge that your hatred of Islam has blinded you to the truth of the words of the Prophet (Peace Be Upon Him). You hater you.
Do you see what I'm getting at?
In contrast, it would seem perfectly reasonable to demand that ramoss give you a set of criteria by that would convince him that a prophecy is genuine. That would be completely fair. But demanding that ramoss provide examples of things that he doesn't believe exist is pointless.
I think you would be better off trying to reach agreement on what a fulfilled prophecy ought to look like. Then, if you can agree on that, you can move on to test the Bible's prophecies against those criteria. that would seem like a reasonable approach. Here is one attempt to do this, taken from The theory of evolution What scientists believe it is and isn`t
quote:
Criteria of a "real" prophecy:
In order for a prophecy to be considered a truly supernaturally inspired prediction, one might argue that it should meet a number of criteria.
In the text below:
"Prophecy" refers to a prediction of the future, and
"Event" is the happening that is said to fulfill the prophecy.
Six suggested criteria are:
1 The prophecy must be clear and unambiguous. It must not allow for a multitude of possible events. For example, Ezekiel 39 fails this test. It makes a prediction involving two military powers: Gog and Magog. "Gog has been interpreted as Gyges, king of Lydia, the Goths, and even a modern or future leader of Russia. Magaog has been interpreted as the Scythains, the Chaldeans, the Huns and modern-day Russia among others." Almost any military conflict in history could be cited as a fulfilment of this prophecy.
2 The event must be a fulfillment of the prediction. That is, the prophecy and the event must be related. Some feel that Isaiah 7:14 predicts the virgin birth of Jesus. It is commonly quoted at Christmas time. But it can be argued that Isaiah's prediction describes a birth which happened centuries before Jesus, and may or may not have been fulfilled in the 8th century BCE. Jesus was born circa 4 to 7 BCE.
3 The event must have actually happened. Countless predictions of the end of the world have failed; the world continued as normal afterwards. Ideally, there should be historical or archaeological evidence that the event really occurred.
4 The prophecy must have happened before the event. The book of Daniel describes a Jewish hero, Daniel, who many believe lived at the beginning of the 6th century BCE. It discusses the rise of various empires in Daniel's future. But religious liberals generally believe that the book was written about 166 BCE. If the liberals are correct, then most of the predictions in the book about the rise of various empires were not predictions of the future inspired by the Holy Spirit. They were actually historical recollections of the past written after the events really happened.
5 The event must not have been artificially created by a person who knew of the prophecy, with the intent of fulfilling it. For example, during a crucifixion by the Roman army, the legs of the victims were generally broken. This hastened their death by asphyxiation. But the Gospels record that Jesus' bones were not broken. When the Roman guards came to break his legs, they found that he had already died. There are a number of possible scenarios about this event. Three are:
i As John 19:31-37 states, this happened "... that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken..." In this case, the prophecy came true in spite of the odds against it happening.
ii Jesus might have been physically exhausted as a result of his scouring and blood loss. He may have died on the stake or cross earlier than expected. Thus the Roman soldiers had no need to break his legs. Jesus intact legs were correctly reported by the Gospel writer(s).
iii The guards might have followed standard procedure by breaking his legs. But the author(s) of the Gospel of John may have ignored this event, and written that it did not happen, in order that a prophecy from the Hebrew Scriptures would be fulfilled.
In this example, it would be impossible to tell if the prophecy:
i Came true because it was divinely inspired.
ii Came true by chance, due to an accidental occurrence.
iii Did not come true, but was fraudulently reported as having happening. Reporting of the event was falsified in order to make it appear as if the prediction in the Hebrew Scriptures came true.
6 The prophecy must not have been a logical guess. For example, a person in mid-1939 who prophesized that a European war would break out before 1950 would simply have been describing the inevitable outcome of pre-existing Nazi expansion plans and activities. Hundreds of millions of people at that time expected a European war. A physic might predict a major volcanic eruption and a serious earthquake rated at over six on the Richter scale somewhere in the world during the current year. But these events are so likely to occur each year that the prophecy would be a sure thing. Similarly an ancient prophet might notice the Assyrian army approaching Israel from the East, conquering country after country in its path. He might quite logically guess that Israel was next.
That's just an example, but it is the kind of thing you should be seeking, rather than asking ramoss to provide examples, which just comes across as silly.
You are not a mind reader. There's no point in you sitting there and telling ramoss what he thinks. If you are interested in what ramoss thinks, you could try asking him, instead of scolding him for attitudes that you merely imagine him to hold.
Just my two cents.
Mutate and Survive

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by jaywill, posted 10-01-2012 10:09 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by jaywill, posted 10-02-2012 6:12 AM Granny Magda has replied

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 220 of 304 (674738)
10-02-2012 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by jaywill
10-02-2012 6:12 AM


I don't think much of the website you sourced which postures itself to be all about "religous tolerance."
The important point is not the value of that specific website or even their set of criteria - those are just an example - but that for serious discussion to take place, you're going to need some sort of criteria for what makes a fulfilled prophecy.
But dual fulfillment of prophecy is evident in the Bible because God's hands cannot be tied when moral situations reoccur. He economically applies the same promise to more than one moment in time.
Whilst you are free to believe whatever you like, you need to realise that from an outsider's perspective, this sounds like you're trying to have your cake and eat it. Your "double fulfilment" is, from an observer's viewpoint, indistinguishable from a prophecy that is vague enough to fit multiple events. That makes for a less than persuasive argument.
Take the the citation of Lev 26:29 for example. The quote notes that this has been fulfilled at least three times. Well... yeah. Of course it has been. That's because it is a trivial prediction. Cannibalism has, sadly, always existed and probably always will. It would be amazing if the Jewish people had gone on this long without some instances of cannibalism. This is not only vague enough to be fitted around numerous events, but it is a spectacularly unimpressive prediction. It's about as impressive as predicting that it will, as some point in the future, rain in Scotland. Of course it will come true. It's a banal prediction and way too vague.
You see a double fulfilment of prophecy. I see a collection of vague prophecies that lack specific detail to the point where they can be fitted around any number of events. This kind of material isn't going to be convincing to anyone who doesn't already believe in Biblical prophecy. It might be fine for playing to the crowd, but it's not going to be persuasive elsewhere.
Mutate and Survive

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by jaywill, posted 10-02-2012 6:12 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by jaywill, posted 10-02-2012 3:51 PM Granny Magda has not replied

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 232 of 304 (674792)
10-03-2012 2:26 AM
Reply to: Message 224 by jaywill
10-02-2012 3:56 PM


It is not just your intellect that He seeks to gain. It is all your heart of loving emotion, confessing conscience, submissive will, as well as analytical intellect that He seeks to gain.
Well you are going to have to start with my intellect. Can you provide any criteria for fulfilled prophecy? Can you jaywill? Not waffle, not preaching, but actual criteria for fulfilled prophecy. If not, there is nothing to discuss here.
I don't read those passages about Cannabalism as practiced around the world. I think the specific referent is Israel.
I don't know how regularly Israel fell into Cannabalism. I don't think that regularly they did. And while the prediction may seem banal to you, the people involved applied it to rather immediate and pressing circumstances. It was more than once they had to consider the dire consequences of revolting against the worship of God.
You may feel that way, but nonetheless, given the lack of a specific timeframe, this passage fails as prophecy (not that it was ever intended as such anyway; it strikes me as more of a curse/warning than prophecy). It's too vague, too open ended. You need to do better than that. Pick your best example, don't waste time with this silly stuff.
I don't agree. Especially when it comes to Christ, to whom all the other godly figures in the Bible are only types, foreshadows, and pre-figures.
You have the worst case of Jesus-tinted sunglasses I've ever seen. Is there any part of the OT that you don't think is about Jesus?
All you do here is demonstrate to all just how criminally low you've set the bar for prophecy. If you are going to insist upon labelling half the OT as Jesus-prophecy, no-one is going to take you seriously.
Without some effort from you at pinning down your criteria for prophecy, I don't see how this conversation can progress.
Mutate and Survive

This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by jaywill, posted 10-02-2012 3:56 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by jaywill, posted 10-03-2012 8:52 AM Granny Magda has replied

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 256 of 304 (674930)
10-04-2012 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 233 by jaywill
10-03-2012 8:52 AM


I have New Testament lenses through which I view the whole Bible. The Old Testament is often like the picture. And the New Testament is like the caption underneath the picture.
This is the way it should be.
No, it's really not. The OT is not a Christian document and it's not a 1st Century document. Reading it as such only invites error.
Paul wrote about the examples given in the OT for benefit of the latter age saints:
"Now these things occured as examples to us, that we should not be ones who lust after evil things, even as they also lusted. Neither become idolaters, as some of them did ... etc." (1 Cor. 10:6,7)
He is speaking of the behavior of the Hebrews in the 40 year wilderness journey. The things that occured were examples to the new covenant saints believing in Christ.
I don't think that's correct. I read Paul as saying that these events serve as lessons, not that they foreshadow Christ.
First Samuel 10:10-12 and First Samuel 19:23,24
But both of those examples are essentially the same; people called Saul "among the prophets" because of he was prophesying. That it was on more than one occasion is of little importance. These are not really separate events. Certainly, it is not comparable to your arguments about Noah foreshadowing Jesus. That argument takes two completely separate sources and two completely separate individuals and conflates them. This example draws exclusively from a single source about the life of a single person. There's no comparison.
My main criteria is to compare the Matthew 1:22,23
That's not really a criterion. That's just a comparison.
I'm trying to understand what standards you require to deem something as prophetic. Apparently, you don't require much.
This is close enough for me to accept the prophet's word about a virgin being with child ... Emmanuel, having a dual fulfillment in Isaiah's child and in the birth of the Son of God.
Huh? There's no link between the two. they're from totally different authors, writing about different subjects at different times. You're acting as though the Bible were a single monolithic source; it's not, it's a patchwork of many different sources, by differing authors with differing intents. I think that your whole approach to reading these books is fundamentally flawed at that this is encouraging you to make serious errors.
Mutate and Survive

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by jaywill, posted 10-03-2012 8:52 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by jaywill, posted 10-04-2012 4:16 PM Granny Magda has replied
 Message 269 by Eliyahu, posted 07-29-2013 1:43 AM Granny Magda has not replied

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


(1)
Message 261 of 304 (675121)
10-06-2012 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 258 by jaywill
10-04-2012 4:16 PM


I don't have a list of dos and don'ts like a computer program.
Well then, you're screwed. You have no criteria by which to judge prophecy. Another way of phrasing the above quote is that you have no logical basis for judging whether something is prophetic or not. You reject logic and make your judgements on a "feels good" basis. This would be problematic in anybody, but in your case it's especially bad, since you are so ridiculously over keen to label the Bible as prophecy and worse, as Christian prophecy, even when the source is Jewish.
Without criteria to rule something in or out you have no basis upon which to make any claim of prophecy. certainly, you will not be able to persuade anybody who is not already a somewhat credulous Fundalegical Christian.
I don't think there's much point in my continuing this conversation under these circumstances. I would urge you to try and be more systematic in your approach to this topic, otherwise I think you will be wasting your time. Until then, thanks for the conversation.
Mutate and Survive

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by jaywill, posted 10-04-2012 4:16 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by jaywill, posted 10-06-2012 10:04 AM Granny Magda has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024