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Author
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Topic: Scriptural evidence that Jesus is Messiah:
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Panda
Member (Idle past 4010 days) Posts: 2688 From: UK Joined: 10-04-2010
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DB writes: My guess is that it would be as futile an attempt to look for lost Gospels as it would to look for evidence that one species actually became another
Both have been found. Is there anything you aren't wrong about?
Tradition and heritage are all dead people's baggage. Stop carrying it!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 53 by Dawn Bertot, posted 04-24-2012 2:05 AM | | Dawn Bertot has not replied |
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Panda
Member (Idle past 4010 days) Posts: 2688 From: UK Joined: 10-04-2010
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quote:
For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
Since this has not come to pass, it is not a prophecy. You seem to think that if you believe that something will eventually come true, then that is a fulfilled prophecy. It is not.
Tradition and heritage are all dead people's baggage. Stop carrying it!
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Panda
Member (Idle past 4010 days) Posts: 2688 From: UK Joined: 10-04-2010
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DB writes: Uh, lets see. A Roman procurator named Pontius Pilate, judges, folds, then pronounces the death sentence on you, uh, yes I believe one could consider that fulfilled. The temple leaders were very much considered government leaders, in those days, especially for the Jewish people. He would not have been hounded continuously during his ministry by the Jewish leaders, then tossed back and forth between Herod and Pilate, were they not considered government leaders. Uh, yes the government was on his shoulder continuously and yes this was fulfilled
"On your shoulders" does not mean "persecuted". In fact, I can't find any religious text that supports your new definition of "on his shoulders".
quote:
The sense of this passage is, that he shall rule, or that the government shall be vested in him. Various interpretations have, however, been given of the phrase 'upon his shoulder.' Some have supposed, that it means simply he shall sustain the government, as the shoulder is that by which we uphold any thing. Pliny and Cicero thus use the phrase; see Rosenmuller. Others, that it means that he should wear the royal purple from a child. - Grotius. Lowth supposes that it refers to the ensign of government - the scepter, the sword, the keys, or the like, that were borne upon the shoulder, or suspended from it; see the note at Isaiah 22:22. It is evident, from this latter place, that some ensign of office was usually borne upon the shoulder. The sense is, that he should be a king, and under this character the Messiah is often predicted. Bible.cc
And if we read the text that follows:
quote:
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the greatness of his government and peace
there will be no end.
This also doesn't support your innovative use of the English language. If you are having to change the actual meaning of words when supporting your position, then it should be patently obvious that you are wrong. Edited by Panda, : No reason given.
Tradition and heritage are all dead people's baggage. Stop carrying it!
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Panda
Member (Idle past 4010 days) Posts: 2688 From: UK Joined: 10-04-2010
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Message 76 of 304 (660777)
04-29-2012 10:49 AM
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Reply to: Message 74 by Archangel
04-29-2012 10:43 AM
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Re: Horse meat, nothing but horse meat.
Archangel writes: This is why debating the scriptures with unbelievers
p.s. jar is a believer - just not of everything. I think he chose to think rather than blindly follow.
Tradition and heritage are all dead people's baggage. Stop carrying it!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 74 by Archangel, posted 04-29-2012 10:43 AM | | Archangel has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 78 by jar, posted 04-29-2012 10:54 AM | | Panda has seen this message but not replied |
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Panda
Member (Idle past 4010 days) Posts: 2688 From: UK Joined: 10-04-2010
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Re: Horse meat, nothing but horse meat.
Dawn Bertot writes: but upseting them is like shooting fish in a barrel
Since that would not be a christian thing to do, it is lucky that you have never succeeded in doing so.
Tradition and heritage are all dead people's baggage. Stop carrying it!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 86 by Dawn Bertot, posted 04-30-2012 8:43 AM | | Dawn Bertot has not replied |
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Panda
Member (Idle past 4010 days) Posts: 2688 From: UK Joined: 10-04-2010
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Re: Then you're a fraud and a poser:
Dawn Bertot writes: Since you do not know "what the Bible actually says"
...says the person that thinks that "On your shoulders" means "persecuted". I gather by your lack of response to my post ( Message 73) that you are unable to support your claim? I realise that you want to jump to your own conclusions about what the bible says, but if all the educated biblical scholars disagree with you, then it should suggest to you that you are wrong.
Tradition and heritage are all dead people's baggage. Stop carrying it!
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Panda
Member (Idle past 4010 days) Posts: 2688 From: UK Joined: 10-04-2010
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Panda writes: "On your shoulders" does not mean "persecuted". Dawn Bertot writes: If the Jewish leaders and Heord in particular were considered goverment officals, in certain areas, and places by the Roman government, then that is all that is needed to demonstrate that the expression is valid and fulfilled If Pilate saw fit to send him to another ruler, that is sufficient to demonstrate the point
If you read what I wrote, you will see that I did not question your use of the word 'government'.
Dawn Bertot writes: Uh yes I think we could conclude the government was on his shoulder
Nope. "On your shoulders" does not mean "persecuted". if it helps you see that I am not questioning the presence of a government: "and the government will be on his shoulders" does not mean "the government will be persecuting him". Here's that quote again, since you ignored it last time:
quote:
The sense of this passage is, that he shall rule, or that the government shall be vested in him. Various interpretations have, however, been given of the phrase 'upon his shoulder.' Some have supposed, that it means simply he shall sustain the government, as the shoulder is that by which we uphold any thing. Pliny and Cicero thus use the phrase; see Rosenmuller. Others, that it means that he should wear the royal purple from a child. - Grotius. Lowth supposes that it refers to the ensign of government - the scepter, the sword, the keys, or the like, that were borne upon the shoulder, or suspended from it; see the note at Isaiah 22:22. It is evident, from this latter place, that some ensign of office was usually borne upon the shoulder. The sense is, that he should be a king, and under this character the Messiah is often predicted. Bible.cc
I am not surprised, but you managed to post ~200 words and not a single one addressed the point I raised. To repeat:
"and the government will be on his shoulders" does not mean "the government will be persecuting him".
Therefore the prophecy is unfulfilled. Edited by Panda, : No reason given. Edited by Panda, : No reason given. Edited by Panda, : No reason given.
Tradition and heritage are all dead people's baggage. Stop carrying it!
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Panda
Member (Idle past 4010 days) Posts: 2688 From: UK Joined: 10-04-2010
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Dawn Bertot writes: However, it does not matter the approach or interpretation one gives the interpretation
Well, that is obviously what you believe. You don't actually care what the bible says: you have already decided what it means, regardless of what is actually written. But other people prefer to be accurate in their interpretation.
Dawn Bertot writes: If you choose to believe the interpretation provided by the quote, then he passes that test as well "You are a king, then!" said Pilate. Jesus answered, "You are right in saying I am a king. In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me."
But he was not a king with any government. He is saying that he is the king of the Jews - but that has no connection to having the the government on his shoulders - it is just him claiming that he is king of the jews. (And I am fairly sure that Jews would not consider him their king.) What you have done there is seen the word 'king' in a sentence and jumped to the conclusion that "king=government". But that is childishly simplistic and wrong. Jesus was not persecuted by the government and nor was he part of the government. Your prophecy is unfulfilled. It doesn't support Jesus being the messiah.
Dawn Bertot writes: Instead of nitpicking each prophecy, it would be more benificial to try and show why he is not the messiah overall.
And that is you disingenuously shifting the burden of proof. The above prophecy is refuted. The burden of proof is yours. We can move on to your other evidence, if you have any. Edited by Panda, : No reason given. Edited by Panda, : No reason given. Edited by Panda, : No reason given.
Tradition and heritage are all dead people's baggage. Stop carrying it!
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Panda
Member (Idle past 4010 days) Posts: 2688 From: UK Joined: 10-04-2010
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Dawn Bertot writes: Since I have now established he was the government of all governments,
You have not established that. Instead you claimed that interpretation is put forward by the people that "want to incorperate what suits thier purposes in the context and reject what does not suit thier ideology". So, I will skip it, as neither of us accept that interpretation.
Dawn Bertot writes: all thats left is, was he persecuted by the government? The jewish leaders were under the authority of the Roman government., ie Herod, the jewish leaders The jewish leaders and the Roman government sentenced him to death If that is the interpretation, then Id say that was having someone on thier back (shoulder)
You see the part where you try to change the wording used in the bible? You see where you try to change 'back' to 'shoulder'? That is the part where you twist the original meaning by changing the words. "and the government will be on his shoulders" does not mean "the government will be persecuting him". You have posted nothing to show it does. To repeat - again:
"and the government will be on his shoulders" does not mean "the government will be persecuting him".
Therefore the prophecy is unfulfilled. Edited by Panda, : No reason given.
Tradition and heritage are all dead people's baggage. Stop carrying it!
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Panda
Member (Idle past 4010 days) Posts: 2688 From: UK Joined: 10-04-2010
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Dawn Bertot writes: Repeating they he was not persecuted by the government is not the same as showing why Herod was not a procurator and why he was not prosecuted by both Heord and Pilate, not to mention the Jewish leaders
I did not repeat that. Here it is again: "and the government will be on his shoulders" does not mean "the government will be persecuting him". Prove otherwise or shut up.
Dawn Bertot writes: Again this is how debate works. If this is your interpretation. "he was made both Lord and Christ". He was Lord of Lords, king of kings
No. You made the claim that "and the government will be on his shoulders" means that "the government will be persecuting him". But that is not true. You have not shown that those two phrases are synonymous. Instead you had to change the words to make them mean what you wanted them to mean. Showing that there existed a government does not show that "and the government will be on his shoulders" means "the government will be persecuting him". Showing that someone was a king does not show that "and the government will be on his shoulders" means "the government will be persecuting him". I repeat (a THIRD time!):
"and the government will be on his shoulders" does not mean "the government will be persecuting him".
Therefore the prophecy is unfulfilled.Show otherwise or shut up. You made the claim: now justify it. I cannot view a 4th failure by you to even try to show that "and the government will be on his shoulders" means "the government will be persecuting him" as anything other than dishonesty. The ball is in your court. At least try to hit it.
Tradition and heritage are all dead people's baggage. Stop carrying it!
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