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Author Topic:   Scriptural evidence that Jesus is Messiah:
jaywill
Member (Idle past 21 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 241 of 304 (674829)
10-03-2012 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 239 by jar
10-03-2012 9:39 AM


Re: Contradictions in the Bible
The author of Matthew is marketing a revisionist form of Judaism. The author is writing after the fact. The author is not making prophecy. The author is simply wrong.

I don't think so. I think you are marketing your modernist unbelieving form of skepticism. I wouldn't trust you over the Gospel of Matthew.

I am certainly glad that Joseph took the visiting angel seriously.

"And when Joseph awoke from his sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commandd him and took to himself his wife. And he did not know her until she bore a son. And she called His name Jesus." (vs. 24,25) .

It is such a beautiful thing to see man working in cooperation with God in trust.

Joseph's obedience and faith paved the way for God to bring about the promise.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by jar, posted 10-03-2012 9:39 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by jar, posted 10-03-2012 10:45 AM jaywill has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 242 of 304 (674830)
10-03-2012 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by jaywill
10-03-2012 10:35 AM


Re: Contradictions in the Bible
Zoooooommmmm....there go them goal posts.

That has absolutely nothing to do with the topic.

You asked for an example of fulfilled Biblical Prophecy and I gave you an example of fulfilled prophecy.

It really i that simple.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by jaywill, posted 10-03-2012 10:35 AM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by jaywill, posted 10-03-2012 11:23 AM jar has responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 21 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 243 of 304 (674831)
10-03-2012 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 231 by ramoss
10-03-2012 1:11 AM


The use that the authors of the New Testament put those passages is certainly not inherent in the passages themselves, in their original context.

This is the technique known as 'shoe horning' a prophecy into place, after the fact..

I don't think that is what is going on with Matthew. Rather I think your suspicion is reminicient of that of the remnant of Jews against Jeremiah the prophet.

They simply could not bring themselves to believe what Jeremiah said God's word was to them. They were highly suspicous of Jeremiah the same way you are highly suspicious of the writers of the New Testament.

Now there are plenty of instances when God did warn about false prophets (Ezek. 22:28; Jer. 23:16; Jer. 6:14-15; Jer. 28:15; Ezek 21:29)

So there is the other extreme disbelief. That is of counting all "Thus sayeth the Lords" as legitimate prophecy. That's another error that men should avoid on the opposite extreme.

But that Jesus, after His resurrection, explained previously under appreciated OT passages is evident from Luke 24:13-35, 44-46.

"Then He opened their mind to understand the Scriptures".

Your accusation is one of "shoe horning" and "retrofitting." But I believe that God can open our minds to understand the Scripture. (At that time it was the Hebrew Bible as Scripture).

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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jaywill
Member (Idle past 21 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 244 of 304 (674832)
10-03-2012 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 242 by jar
10-03-2012 10:45 AM


Re: Contradictions in the Bible
You asked for an example of fulfilled Biblical Prophecy and I gave you an example of fulfilled prophecy.

I have gone back fairly over posts I thought I may have missed from you. I did not see examples of fulfilled prophecy.

What I saw was some suggested criteria without examples other than the Isaiah passages in chapter 7.

To that I have shown you Matthew only referenced specific words in verse 14 and not all the rest of the happenings spoken of by Isaiah.

Beside this, what example did you hold out?
I saw your criteria - unambigious, beforehand speaking, etc.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by jar, posted 10-03-2012 10:45 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by NoNukes, posted 10-03-2012 11:31 AM jaywill has responded
 Message 247 by jar, posted 10-03-2012 11:33 AM jaywill has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 245 of 304 (674833)
10-03-2012 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 244 by jaywill
10-03-2012 11:23 AM


Re: Contradictions in the Bible
I have gone back fairly over posts I thought I may have missed from you. I did not see examples of fulfilled prophecy.

I am puzzled by this statement. Didn't you and jar both agree that Isaiah 7:14 is a fulfilled prophecy? Isn't it the double fulfillment that you two disagree about?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

It's not too late to register to vote. State Registration Deadlines


This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by jaywill, posted 10-03-2012 11:23 AM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by jaywill, posted 10-04-2012 8:16 AM NoNukes has responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 21 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 246 of 304 (674835)
10-03-2012 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 238 by jar
10-03-2012 9:34 AM


Re: Contradictions in the Bible
The author of Matthew can't predict the birth of Jesus.
Sorry but it really is that simple.

Here's a post I missed.

It is the angel of the Lord that was sent to Joseph who predicted.
He said the child would be born of a virgin to Joseph (Matt. 1:20)

Yes, Matthew is recording what the angel said to Joseph afterwards.
I don't think Matthew is doing anything much different from Isaiah as Isaiah explains some things afterwards too (ch. 8) about Isaiah's son's birth, etc.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by jar, posted 10-03-2012 9:34 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by jar, posted 10-03-2012 11:34 AM jaywill has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 247 of 304 (674836)
10-03-2012 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 244 by jaywill
10-03-2012 11:23 AM


Re: Contradictions in the Bible
Sheesh.

quote:
You asked for an example of fulfilled prophecy in Message 203 and I provided one in Message 204 and again in Message 208.

It really is that simple.

AbE: and the prophecy has nothing top do with Jesus.


Yet again.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by jaywill, posted 10-03-2012 11:23 AM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by jaywill, posted 10-03-2012 11:38 AM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 248 of 304 (674837)
10-03-2012 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 246 by jaywill
10-03-2012 11:33 AM


Re: Contradictions in the Bible
Again again, that has NOTHING to do with prophecy, it is written after the fact.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by jaywill, posted 10-03-2012 11:33 AM jaywill has not yet responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 21 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 249 of 304 (674838)
10-03-2012 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 247 by jar
10-03-2012 11:33 AM


Re: Contradictions in the Bible
You asked for an example of fulfilled prophecy in Message 203 and I provided one in Message 204 and again in Message 208.

Each of those three links I specifically responded to.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by jar, posted 10-03-2012 11:33 AM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 21 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 250 of 304 (674841)
10-03-2012 11:44 AM


AbE: and the prophecy has nothing top do with Jesus.

For the last time. The words that you say had nothing to do with Jesus, Matthew does not refer to. He refers to verse 14.

That has to do with the virgin (or young woman) born child called Emmanuel. Believe it or do not believe it.

I believe it. But evidence is not persuasion. I cannot force persuade you against your will. Don't take it as fulfilled prophecy if you wish.

We take it as Christians. Forget about trying to rob the Christian church of this long held confidence in Matthew's Gospel.

You're not going to rob us of this fulfilled prophecy. Forget about it.

Soon I may go down to the discussion of the preterist discussion of the Second Coming of Christ to respond to some thoughts there.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by jar, posted 10-03-2012 12:00 PM jaywill has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 251 of 304 (674843)
10-03-2012 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by jaywill
10-03-2012 11:44 AM


And that is called quote mining, taking stuff out of context.

Yes, the author of Matthew is trying to shoehorn his position in by taking a single verse out of context. When you honestly go back and read Isaiah 7 though you find that the author is misrepresenting what was actually written.

Here is Isaiah 7 in full, not quote mined.

quote:
Isaiah 7

Now it came to pass in the days of Ahaz the son of Jotham, the son of Uzziah, king of Judah, that Rezin king of Syria and Pekah the son of Remaliah, king of Israel, went up to Jerusalem to make war against it, but could not prevail against it. 2 And it was told to the house of David, saying, Syrias forces are deployed in Ephraim. So his heart and the heart of his people were moved as the trees of the woods are moved with the wind.

3 Then the Lord said to Isaiah, Go out now to meet Ahaz, you and Shear-Jashub your son, at the end of the aqueduct from the upper pool, on the highway to the Fullers Field, 4 and say to him: Take heed, and be quiet; do not fear or be fainthearted for these two stubs of smoking firebrands, for the fierce anger of Rezin and Syria, and the son of Remaliah. 5 Because Syria, Ephraim, and the son of Remaliah have plotted evil against you, saying, 6 Let us go up against Judah and trouble it, and let us make a gap in its wall for ourselves, and set a king over them, the son of Tabel 7 thus says the Lord God:

It shall not stand,
Nor shall it come to pass.
8 For the head of Syria is Damascus,
And the head of Damascus is Rezin.
Within sixty-five years Ephraim will be broken,
So that it will not be a people.
9 The head of Ephraim is Samaria,
And the head of Samaria is Remaliahs son.
If you will not believe,
Surely you shall not be established.

10 Moreover the Lord spoke again to Ahaz, saying, 11 Ask a sign for yourself from the Lord your God; ask it either in the depth or in the height above.

12 But Ahaz said, I will not ask, nor will I test the Lord!

13 Then he said, Hear now, O house of David! Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will you weary my God also? 14 Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel. 15 Curds and honey He shall eat, that He may know to refuse the evil and choose the good. 16 For before the Child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that you dread will be forsaken by both her kings. 17 The Lord will bring the king of Assyria upon you and your people and your fathers housedays that have not come since the day that Ephraim departed from Judah.

18 And it shall come to pass in that day
That the Lord will whistle for the fly
That is in the farthest part of the rivers of Egypt,
And for the bee that is in the land of Assyria.
19 They will come, and all of them will rest
In the desolate valleys and in the clefts of the rocks,
And on all thorns and in all pastures.

20 In the same day the Lord will shave with a hired razor,
With those from beyond the River, with the king of Assyria,
The head and the hair of the legs,
And will also remove the beard.

21 It shall be in that day
That a man will keep alive a young cow and two sheep;
22 So it shall be, from the abundance of milk they give,
That he will eat curds;
For curds and honey everyone will eat who is left in the land.

23 It shall happen in that day,
That wherever there could be a thousand vines
Worth a thousand shekels of silver,
It will be for briers and thorns.
24 With arrows and bows men will come there,
Because all the land will become briers and thorns.

25 And to any hill which could be dug with the hoe,
You will not go there for fear of briers and thorns;
But it will become a range for oxen
And a place for sheep to roam.


It does NOT refer to anything that will happen hundreds of years in the future but to immediate local events.

Edited by jar, : fix quote box


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by jaywill, posted 10-03-2012 11:44 AM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by jaywill, posted 10-03-2012 12:09 PM jar has responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 21 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 252 of 304 (674846)
10-03-2012 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by jar
10-03-2012 12:00 PM


And that is called quote mining, taking stuff out of context.
Yes, the author of Matthew is trying to shoehorn his position in by taking a single verse out of context. When you honestly go back and read Isaiah 7 though you find that the author is misrepresenting what was actually written.

Here is Isaiah 7 in full, not quote mined.

What are the WORDS which Matthew says are were being fulfilled ?
They are only the 14th verse.

Could it possibly that God would fulfill words spoken by one of His prophets more than once ?

Yes, if He has that need.

An example in the Old Testament:

"And the Spirit of Jehovah will rush upon you; and you will prophesy and be turned into another man." (1 Sam. 10:6)

Taken as fulfilled by God's people in 1 Sam. 10:11,12.
Taken a second time to be fulfilled in 1 Sam. 19:23,24.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by jar, posted 10-03-2012 12:00 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by jar, posted 10-03-2012 12:17 PM jaywill has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 253 of 304 (674847)
10-03-2012 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by jaywill
10-03-2012 12:09 PM


That's called the theology of anything the person can make up. By that reasoning the Bible says that God is the source of all evil and that there is no God.

Sorry but quote mining is simply dishonest at best.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by jaywill, posted 10-03-2012 12:09 PM jaywill has not yet responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 21 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 254 of 304 (674916)
10-04-2012 8:16 AM
Reply to: Message 245 by NoNukes
10-03-2012 11:31 AM


Re: Contradictions in the Bible
I am puzzled by this statement. Didn't you and jar both agree that Isaiah 7:14 is a fulfilled prophecy? Isn't it the double fulfillment that you two disagree about?

That's right.

It is a bit confusing because when I asked for his example, he somewhat picks prophetic words uttered which are the very utterances being disputed.

I think he picked this example to attempt to jury rig the debate in his favor.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by NoNukes, posted 10-03-2012 11:31 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by NoNukes, posted 10-04-2012 12:21 PM jaywill has not yet responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 21 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 255 of 304 (674918)
10-04-2012 8:40 AM
Reply to: Message 231 by ramoss
10-03-2012 1:11 AM


Deuteronomy 28 is the same thing.. it is a list of 'these are the rewards you will get if you obey the lord, and these are the punishments you will receive if you disobey the lord. It's a 'prophecy' in so much it is a message from God (according to the author).. but it can't be 'full filled', since both the reward and the punishments are conditional. Do good, and good will come to you, else if you do bad, I'll punish you' type of details.. no "duel" prophecies.. and it has nothing to do with Jesus what so ever.. if you actually read it in context.

I did not use this a a verse specifically pertaining to Jesus. I used it as an example of God's prophetic words fulfilled more than once.

The way in which God fulfills His promises through the prophets is often clearly affected by the heart of the people. The calibration of their hearts towards His will can effect how God will carry out the fulfillment of prophecy.

This lesson is seen in a number of places in the OT. One striking one is the prophetic words of Elisha the prophet to king Jehoahaz in Second Kings 13:

quote:
And Elisha said to him, take a bow and arrow, and he took a bow and arrows to him. And he said to the king of Israel, Grasp the bow; and he grasped the bow, And Elisha put his hand over the hands of the king, and he said, Open the window toward the east; and he opened it. And Elisha said, Shoot; and he shot. And he said,

Jehovah's arrow of victory, an arrow of victory against Syria; for you will strike Syria in Aphek until you have consumed it.

And he said, take the arrows; and he took them. And he said to the king of Israel, Strike the ground; and he struck the ground three times then stopped.

And the man of God became angry with him and said, You should have struck it five or six times; then you would have struck Syria until you had consumed them. But now you shall strike Syria only three times. And Elisha died, and they buried him ..." (2 Kings 13:15-20a)


In this prophecy God seems to require of king Jehoahaz more resolve, more determination to grasp the opportunity of the divine will working. The first prophecy concerning opening the window called for simple obedience. But the additional prophecy called for greater resolve and coordination with the Almighty.

Clearly, a lesson is here. Man's is not just to wait passively for words of God to magically come true. Man is to be consecrated to God's purpose and affix his own will firmly to that of God's.

The reason some posters here are skeptical of the manner in which God fulfills prophecy at times, may be because they only expect mechanical adherance to certain words devoid of the moral and cooperative aspect of man's heart and will towards God's.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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