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Author | Topic: Scriptural evidence that Jesus is Messiah: | |||||||||||||||||||||||
jaywill Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
The author of Matthew is marketing a revisionist form of Judaism. The author is writing after the fact. The author is not making prophecy. The author is simply wrong. I don't think so. I think you are marketing your modernist unbelieving form of skepticism. I wouldn't trust you over the Gospel of Matthew. I am certainly glad that Joseph took the visiting angel seriously.
"And when Joseph awoke from his sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commandd him and took to himself his wife. And he did not know her until she bore a son. And she called His name Jesus." (vs. 24,25) . It is such a beautiful thing to see man working in cooperation with God in trust. Joseph's obedience and faith paved the way for God to bring about the promise. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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jar Member (Idle past 97 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Zoooooommmmm....there go them goal posts.
That has absolutely nothing to do with the topic. You asked for an example of fulfilled Biblical Prophecy and I gave you an example of fulfilled prophecy. It really i that simple.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jaywill Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
The use that the authors of the New Testament put those passages is certainly not inherent in the passages themselves, in their original context. This is the technique known as 'shoe horning' a prophecy into place, after the fact..
I don't think that is what is going on with Matthew. Rather I think your suspicion is reminicient of that of the remnant of Jews against Jeremiah the prophet. They simply could not bring themselves to believe what Jeremiah said God's word was to them. They were highly suspicous of Jeremiah the same way you are highly suspicious of the writers of the New Testament. Now there are plenty of instances when God did warn about false prophets (Ezek. 22:28; Jer. 23:16; Jer. 6:14-15; Jer. 28:15; Ezek 21:29) So there is the other extreme disbelief. That is of counting all "Thus sayeth the Lords" as legitimate prophecy. That's another error that men should avoid on the opposite extreme. But that Jesus, after His resurrection, explained previously under appreciated OT passages is evident from Luke 24:13-35, 44-46. "Then He opened their mind to understand the Scriptures". Your accusation is one of "shoe horning" and "retrofitting." But I believe that God can open our minds to understand the Scripture. (At that time it was the Hebrew Bible as Scripture). Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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jaywill Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
You asked for an example of fulfilled Biblical Prophecy and I gave you an example of fulfilled prophecy.
I have gone back fairly over posts I thought I may have missed from you. I did not see examples of fulfilled prophecy. What I saw was some suggested criteria without examples other than the Isaiah passages in chapter 7. To that I have shown you Matthew only referenced specific words in verse 14 and not all the rest of the happenings spoken of by Isaiah. Beside this, what example did you hold out?I saw your criteria - unambigious, beforehand speaking, etc. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
I have gone back fairly over posts I thought I may have missed from you. I did not see examples of fulfilled prophecy. I am puzzled by this statement. Didn't you and jar both agree that Isaiah 7:14 is a fulfilled prophecy? Isn't it the double fulfillment that you two disagree about?Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison. It's not too late to register to vote. State Registration Deadlines
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jaywill Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
The author of Matthew can't predict the birth of Jesus. Sorry but it really is that simple. Here's a post I missed. It is the angel of the Lord that was sent to Joseph who predicted.He said the child would be born of a virgin to Joseph (Matt. 1:20) Yes, Matthew is recording what the angel said to Joseph afterwards.I don't think Matthew is doing anything much different from Isaiah as Isaiah explains some things afterwards too (ch. 8) about Isaiah's son's birth, etc. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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jar Member (Idle past 97 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Sheesh.
quote: Yet again.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 97 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Again again, that has NOTHING to do with prophecy, it is written after the fact.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jaywill Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
You asked for an example of fulfilled prophecy in Message 203 and I provided one in Message 204 and again in Message 208. Each of those three links I specifically responded to. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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jaywill Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
AbE: and the prophecy has nothing top do with Jesus. For the last time. The words that you say had nothing to do with Jesus, Matthew does not refer to. He refers to verse 14. That has to do with the virgin (or young woman) born child called Emmanuel. Believe it or do not believe it. I believe it. But evidence is not persuasion. I cannot force persuade you against your will. Don't take it as fulfilled prophecy if you wish. We take it as Christians. Forget about trying to rob the Christian church of this long held confidence in Matthew's Gospel. You're not going to rob us of this fulfilled prophecy. Forget about it. Soon I may go down to the discussion of the preterist discussion of the Second Coming of Christ to respond to some thoughts there. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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jar Member (Idle past 97 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: |
And that is called quote mining, taking stuff out of context.
Yes, the author of Matthew is trying to shoehorn his position in by taking a single verse out of context. When you honestly go back and read Isaiah 7 though you find that the author is misrepresenting what was actually written. Here is Isaiah 7 in full, not quote mined.
quote: It does NOT refer to anything that will happen hundreds of years in the future but to immediate local events. Edited by jar, : fix quote boxAnyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jaywill Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
And that is called quote mining, taking stuff out of context. Yes, the author of Matthew is trying to shoehorn his position in by taking a single verse out of context. When you honestly go back and read Isaiah 7 though you find that the author is misrepresenting what was actually written. Here is Isaiah 7 in full, not quote mined.
What are the WORDS which Matthew says are were being fulfilled ?They are only the 14th verse. Could it possibly that God would fulfill words spoken by one of His prophets more than once ? Yes, if He has that need. An example in the Old Testament:
"And the Spirit of Jehovah will rush upon you; and you will prophesy and be turned into another man." (1 Sam. 10:6) Taken as fulfilled by God's people in 1 Sam. 10:11,12. Taken a second time to be fulfilled in 1 Sam. 19:23,24. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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jar Member (Idle past 97 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: |
That's called the theology of anything the person can make up. By that reasoning the Bible says that God is the source of all evil and that there is no God.
Sorry but quote mining is simply dishonest at best.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jaywill Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
I am puzzled by this statement. Didn't you and jar both agree that Isaiah 7:14 is a fulfilled prophecy? Isn't it the double fulfillment that you two disagree about? That's right. It is a bit confusing because when I asked for his example, he somewhat picks prophetic words uttered which are the very utterances being disputed. I think he picked this example to attempt to jury rig the debate in his favor. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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jaywill Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
Deuteronomy 28 is the same thing.. it is a list of 'these are the rewards you will get if you obey the lord, and these are the punishments you will receive if you disobey the lord. It's a 'prophecy' in so much it is a message from God (according to the author).. but it can't be 'full filled', since both the reward and the punishments are conditional. Do good, and good will come to you, else if you do bad, I'll punish you' type of details.. no "duel" prophecies.. and it has nothing to do with Jesus what so ever.. if you actually read it in context. I did not use this a a verse specifically pertaining to Jesus. I used it as an example of God's prophetic words fulfilled more than once. The way in which God fulfills His promises through the prophets is often clearly affected by the heart of the people. The calibration of their hearts towards His will can effect how God will carry out the fulfillment of prophecy. This lesson is seen in a number of places in the OT. One striking one is the prophetic words of Elisha the prophet to king Jehoahaz in Second Kings 13:
quote: In this prophecy God seems to require of king Jehoahaz more resolve, more determination to grasp the opportunity of the divine will working. The first prophecy concerning opening the window called for simple obedience. But the additional prophecy called for greater resolve and coordination with the Almighty. Clearly, a lesson is here. Man's is not just to wait passively for words of God to magically come true. Man is to be consecrated to God's purpose and affix his own will firmly to that of God's. The reason some posters here are skeptical of the manner in which God fulfills prophecy at times, may be because they only expect mechanical adherance to certain words devoid of the moral and cooperative aspect of man's heart and will towards God's. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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