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Author Topic:   Scriptural evidence that Jesus is Messiah:
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2380
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


Message 256 of 304 (674930)
10-04-2012 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 233 by jaywill
10-03-2012 8:52 AM


I have New Testament lenses through which I view the whole Bible. The Old Testament is often like the picture. And the New Testament is like the caption underneath the picture.

This is the way it should be.

No, it's really not. The OT is not a Christian document and it's not a 1st Century document. Reading it as such only invites error.

Paul wrote about the examples given in the OT for benefit of the latter age saints:

"Now these things occured as examples to us, that we should not be ones who lust after evil things, even as they also lusted. Neither become idolaters, as some of them did ... etc." (1 Cor. 10:6,7)

He is speaking of the behavior of the Hebrews in the 40 year wilderness journey. The things that occured were examples to the new covenant saints believing in Christ.

I don't think that's correct. I read Paul as saying that these events serve as lessons, not that they foreshadow Christ.

First Samuel 10:10-12 and First Samuel 19:23,24

But both of those examples are essentially the same; people called Saul "among the prophets" because of he was prophesying. That it was on more than one occasion is of little importance. These are not really separate events. Certainly, it is not comparable to your arguments about Noah foreshadowing Jesus. That argument takes two completely separate sources and two completely separate individuals and conflates them. This example draws exclusively from a single source about the life of a single person. There's no comparison.

My main criteria is to compare the Matthew 1:22,23

That's not really a criterion. That's just a comparison.

I'm trying to understand what standards you require to deem something as prophetic. Apparently, you don't require much.

This is close enough for me to accept the prophet's word about a virgin being with child ... Emmanuel, having a dual fulfillment in Isaiah's child and in the birth of the Son of God.

Huh? There's no link between the two. they're from totally different authors, writing about different subjects at different times. You're acting as though the Bible were a single monolithic source; it's not, it's a patchwork of many different sources, by differing authors with differing intents. I think that your whole approach to reading these books is fundamentally flawed at that this is encouraging you to make serious errors.

Mutate and Survive


This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by jaywill, posted 10-03-2012 8:52 AM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by jaywill, posted 10-04-2012 4:16 PM Granny Magda has responded
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 257 of 304 (674946)
10-04-2012 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 254 by jaywill
10-04-2012 8:16 AM


Re: Contradictions in the Bible
I think he picked this example to attempt to jury rig the debate in his favor.

Picking this particular example does help to further Jar's purpose, but I simply don't see anything the least bit nefarious about the pick at all. Further, if you have a legitimate objection to Jar's choice, then you ought to cite your objection and ask for a second example rather than pretending that the first one had never been offered.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

It's not too late to register to vote. State Registration Deadlines


This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by jaywill, posted 10-04-2012 8:16 AM jaywill has not yet responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 233 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 258 of 304 (674965)
10-04-2012 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 256 by Granny Magda
10-04-2012 10:57 AM


No, it's really not. The OT is not a Christian document and it's not a 1st Century document. Reading it as such only invites error.

The entire 66 books of the Bible are one revelation. I am not arguing for a "Christian document" as much as one revelation of God.

God's revelation is progressive and gradually unfolding.

Here's one Old Testament passage indicating that the whole world is to be God's audience:

"Turned to Me and be saved, All the ends of the earth, For I am God and there is no one else." (Isaiah 45:22)

Did you catch that? Not just Israel should turn to be saved but "all the ends of the earth".

So the Scriptures are aimed at the whole world. How will we know much about who He is unless we read about Him?


jaywill:
Paul wrote about the examples given in the OT for benefit of the latter age saints:
"Now these things occured as examples to us, that we should not be ones who lust after evil things, even as they also lusted. Neither become idolaters, as some of them did ... etc." (1 Cor. 10:6,7)

He is speaking of the behavior of the Hebrews in the 40 year wilderness journey. The things that occured were examples to the new covenant saints believing in Christ.

Granny:
I don't think that's correct. I read Paul as saying that these events serve as lessons, not that they foreshadow Christ.

One has to be discerning as to what is a type of Christ and what is something related to FOLLOWING Christ.

The Rock, the Manna, the Ark, the budded rod in the ark, the iron hammer head that floated upon the water, the tree thrown into the bitter water to make it sweet, even the entire good land of Canaan, etc. these are symbols pointing to Jesus Christ.

The example of the behavior of the Hebrews are related to our following of Christ. This is pretty much what I said -

"He is speaking of the behavior of the Hebrews in the 40 year wilderness journey. The things that occured were examples to the new covenant saints believing in Christ."

My phrase "saints believing in Christ" means Christians.


First Samuel 10:10-12 and First Samuel 19:23,24

But both of those examples are essentially the same; people called Saul "among the prophets" because of he was prophesying.

It is not just that he was prophesying but that he was a changed man. For the prophesy was that he would be turned into another man. So the exclamatory question is a proverb about this coming true.

However the writer of First Samuel points to two different instances as the source of people exclaming that prophesy had been fulfilled.

That it was on more than one occasion is of little importance.

I think things which we might easily take for granted are there very deliberately in Scripture. Samuel should have known that he was potentially introducing confusion by the contradiction. I have no reason to believe it was an oversight.

Rather as the Scripture was written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit Samuel was moved to write that both occasions served as the backround to the people's proverb "Is Saul also among the prophets" . Ie. "My! Saul really has been turned into another man by the Spirit of God."


These are not really separate events. Certainly, it is not comparable to your arguments about Noah foreshadowing Jesus.

It is different in that Jesus is the New Testament age Noah and ark of Noah. But the matter of Saul being turned into another man through the Spirit that was upon the prophets is fulfilled in the same age, within one man's life span.

I agree the two examples are different. But they are similar too.


That argument takes two completely separate sources and two completely separate individuals and conflates them. This example draws exclusively from a single source about the life of a single person. There's no comparison.

There are other differences as well. But I do not eliminate the legitimacy of using them.

Let's take the Noah example. Let's consider the ark of Noah. We know that the Apostle Peter used the ark of Noah as a type of salvation in Christ in First Peter 3:20-21.

Now this short post will not be an exhaustive expounding of either Noah's flood or of First Peter 3:20-21. But it is noticed that God seems to have assured that a correspondence of type and antitype did occur.

The day the ark of Noah rested on dry land was the day on which Jesus Christ rose from the dead. I don't think it is coincidence or luck. I think the Divine Mind foreshadows something of the salvation of the travelers in Noah's ark with the redeemed in Christ.

The day of Christ's resurrection from the dead being foreshadowed by the day the ark of Noah came to rest upon dry land for a new beginning of life.

A couple of notes on this I submit.

quote:
The Bible is marvelous. Genesis 8:4 says that the ark rested upon the mountains of Ararat on the seventeenth day of the the seventh month. If you read the Bible carefully along with history and the best lexicons, you will find that, at the time of the Passover in Egypt, the seventh month was changed to the first (Exo. 12:2). The Jews have two kinds of calendars, the civil calendar and the sacred calender. The civil calendar was the old one, and the sacred calender was the new one, which began from the first Passover. When God told the Israelites to have the Passover, He told them that that month had to be counted as the first month of the year. In Hebrew the name of that month was Abib (Exo. 13:4), which means sprouting, budding, fresh ears of corn. This signifies that, in the eyes of God, the Passover was counted as a new beginning of life. Why do I point this out? Because the Lord Jesus was crucified on the day of the Passover, on the fourteenth day of the month (Exo. 12:6; John 18:28). According to the sacred calendar, He was crucified in the first month, and according to the civil calendar, He was crucified in the seventh month, the same month when the ark rested upon the mount. The Lord Jesus was crucified on the fourteenth day of the month and was resurrected three days later. Thus, according to the sacred calender, Christ was resurrected on the seventeenth day of the first month. According to the civil calendar, it was on the seventeenth day of the seventh month, the very day that the ark rested upon the mountains of Ararat. So, in that early type of the ark resting upon the mountain, we were told the exact date of the resurrection of Christ. This is wonderful."

quote:
"Eight people emerged from the ark. Christ was resurrected on the first day of the week, i.e. the eighth day of the old week ... thus the number eight signifies resurrection. Since all the believers, the components of the church, were included in Christ's resurrection (Eph. 2:6; 1 Pet. 1:3), they are the reusrrected people."

Copied from Life Study of Genesis by Witness Lee, pgs 423,424, Living Stream Ministry.


I'm trying to understand what standards you require to deem something as prophetic. Apparently, you don't require much.

I don't have a list of dos and don'ts like a computer program. I do have some examples of the fulfillment of prophetic words in Scripture elsewhere to serve as comparisons.


Huh? There's no link between the two. they're from totally different authors, writing about different subjects at different times. You're acting as though the Bible were a single monolithic source; it's not, it's a patchwork of many different sources, by differing authors with differing intents. I think that your whole approach to reading these books is fundamentally flawed at that this is encouraging you to make serious errors.

From Genesis to Revelation there is an overall unity of purpose in this book. And I encourage you to get some "Christ tinted glasses" of faith in Jesus.

Or a good way to read the Bible and lay hold of this unity is to do the following, IMO - Read first a few times Revelation 21 and 22 the conclusion of the whole Bible. Get a good grasp of where everything climaxes, concludes, and consumates.

Now go back to Genesis and begin to read through. But always keep in mind what is the final destination unto which everything is leading. All things in the Bible, in one way or another, are headed towards this consumation of Christ and His Bride, of God and His living temple, of the Triune God and His City of life.

Everything, I think, is somehow related to arriving at that destination. If you would like me to give you a few examples in brief, I can. These stops along the way are little signs reminding us of where everything in the divine revelation is ultimately going to end up.

I am not above making errors. And theologians are not above making errors.

But before we get to Matthew refering to specific words in the book of Isaiah we have examples of prophetic words being fulfilled by God. Though it is difficult to keep God completely in our box (either religious box or skeptical box) we have examples of how He worked in the past.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by Granny Magda, posted 10-04-2012 10:57 AM Granny Magda has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by NoNukes, posted 10-05-2012 6:39 PM jaywill has responded
 Message 261 by Granny Magda, posted 10-06-2012 8:54 AM jaywill has responded

  
ramoss
Member
Posts: 3122
Joined: 08-11-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 259 of 304 (675084)
10-05-2012 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by jaywill
10-03-2012 9:12 AM


Re: Contradictions in the Bible
quote:

Matthew is not ambiguous in his words - "Now all this happened so that what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet might be fulfilled, SAYING, "Behold, the virgin shall be with child and shall bear a son, and they shall call His name Emmanuek" (which is translated, God with us.)).

Yes, Matthew quoted from Isaiah ,using the Septuagint, to promote Jesus to a group of Hellenistic Jews. However, this is what is known as 'shoe horning', because if you read the actual passage, it has nothing to do with a virgin. The word 'parthenos' at the time Matthew used ti mainly meant Virgin, yes, but when Isaiah was first translated, a number of centuries earlier, it did not mainly carry that connotation. This is writing after the fact to retrofit concepts.. it is evidence that Matthew was selling the idea that Jesus was the Messiah, but he was misusing the Jewish scriptures by mistranslation and out of context quotes to do so. It might be evidence of the idea that Matthew was pushing.. but after the fact retrofitting is not particularly convincing.

As a matter of fact, I consider that method something called "LYING". To make his theological point, he LIED about the jewish scriptures.


This message is a reply to:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 260 of 304 (675101)
10-05-2012 6:39 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by jaywill
10-04-2012 4:16 PM


Numerology..
"Eight people emerged from the ark. Christ was resurrected on the first day of the week, i.e. the eighth day of the old week ... thus the number eight signifies resurrection. Since all the believers, the components of the church, were included in Christ's resurrection (Eph. 2:6; 1 Pet. 1:3), they are the reusrrected people."

This type of reasoning is what I refer to as "Bible Worship". It is, in fact, numerology of the highest order. Eight people = day eight?? Really? There is not the slightest chance that this confluence is after the fact rationalization? If the number of people on the ark had been seven, wouldn't numerologists have made something out of that too?

I have trouble wrapping my head around the fact this is what some people mean by Bible study. So if there was no global flood, or if some detail of it is not as written in Genesis, then Jesus wasn't the son of God? Really?

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

It's not too late to register to vote. State Registration Deadlines


This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by jaywill, posted 10-04-2012 4:16 PM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by jaywill, posted 10-06-2012 10:37 AM NoNukes has responded

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2380
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


(1)
Message 261 of 304 (675121)
10-06-2012 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 258 by jaywill
10-04-2012 4:16 PM


I don't have a list of dos and don'ts like a computer program.

Well then, you're screwed. You have no criteria by which to judge prophecy. Another way of phrasing the above quote is that you have no logical basis for judging whether something is prophetic or not. You reject logic and make your judgements on a "feels good" basis. This would be problematic in anybody, but in your case it's especially bad, since you are so ridiculously over keen to label the Bible as prophecy and worse, as Christian prophecy, even when the source is Jewish.

Without criteria to rule something in or out you have no basis upon which to make any claim of prophecy. certainly, you will not be able to persuade anybody who is not already a somewhat credulous Fundalegical Christian.

I don't think there's much point in my continuing this conversation under these circumstances. I would urge you to try and be more systematic in your approach to this topic, otherwise I think you will be wasting your time. Until then, thanks for the conversation.

Mutate and Survive


This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by jaywill, posted 10-04-2012 4:16 PM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
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jaywill
Member (Idle past 233 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 262 of 304 (675124)
10-06-2012 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 261 by Granny Magda
10-06-2012 8:54 AM


Well then, you're screwed.

Far from it. I just am aware that a total systemization of the Bible is probably not possible.


You have no criteria by which to judge prophecy.

We really have to first define "prophecy." Some prophecy is not predictive at all. We really haven't even pinned down what we mean here by prophecy.

I have been generally adhering to the assumption of this thread that we are talking about predictions. But there is a lot of prophecy which is not supernatural prediction of events.


Another way of phrasing the above quote is that you have no logical basis for judging whether something is prophetic or not.

Comparing to some examples of what we are discussing is a legitimate way to go about it. Deuteronomy did speak of discerning a true prophecy from a false one.

And we know there is plenty of reference to false and phony prophecy. So I may not have a flow chart. Perhaps someone does. But comparing the Matthew instance with other accepted fulfilled prophecies I think is valid if not exhaustively systematic with mathematical certainty.


You reject logic and make your judgements on a "feels good" basis.

I have not rejected logic and you probably are running on your own "feels bad" knee jerk skepticism.

There are discribed fullfilled prophetic words in the Old Testament with which we can compare our New Testament pronounced fulfilled prophecy in Matthew to.


This would be problematic in anybody, but in your case it's especially bad, since you are so ridiculously over keen to label the Bible as prophecy and worse, as Christian prophecy, even when the source is Jewish.

I think you are ringing a false alarm. The example of Samuel's prophecy over Saul and its dual fulfillment can be compared to Isaiah's prophecy and its reference to Ahaz's time and a portion of its words accplicable to the virgin birth of Jesus.

I am not nearly as lost as you'd like to think.


Without criteria to rule something in or out you have no basis upon which to make any claim of prophecy.

I don't think I could go to that extreme. But I could make the same charge of you. That is that you can see to it that no criteria will be suitable to verify that Jesus was the prophecied coming Messiah.

We have some prophecies that the OT says came true. Their manner can be compared to what a NT author says is prophecy come true. That is a valid way of ascertaining if the NT writer is saying something plausible.


certainly, you will not be able to persuade anybody who is not already a somewhat credulous Fundalegical Christian.

I never promised to persuade everybody. I present here usually reasons why I believe. And I deal with problems unbelievers have and explain why those "problems" are not problems for some of us Christians.

And the isolation of some words by Matthew to say Christ's birth fulfulled that, is not a problem to me.

In fact if you go back to the example of Christ refering to Isaiah 61 in Luke 4, Jesus "rolled up the scroll and gave it back to the attendent" before saying -

"Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing." (v.21)

Jesus read a portion of the 61rst chapter of Isaiah, stopped, rolled the scroll up and gave it to be put away. Then He said that the specific words He had just read had been fulfilled in their hearing.

If you go back to Isaiah 61 and read the verses after 1 and 2a you will see that He did not quote the passage about the year of "VENGENCE of our God."

He knew just what He wanted to refer to as having fulfillment in His coming on that day. He also knew to close the scroll and leave out those words which, perhaps, He was to fulfill on another day. Ie. vengence of God which could refer to His Second Coming.

So a portion of Isaiah's prophecy Christ says He fulfills in Luke 4. And a portion of Isaiah's prophecy Matthew says Christ fulfilled in Matthew 1.

What we have with you skeptics is a objection of foul play. "No, you cannot take a portion of the total chapter and say Jesus fulfilled the prophecy."

I think you're wrong. "These words" refer to the words Jesus read before He closed the book. And "what was spoken ... saying .." refers to the specific words alluded to by Matthew.


I don't think there's much point in my continuing this conversation ...

Bye.

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This message is a reply to:
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jaywill
Member (Idle past 233 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 263 of 304 (675125)
10-06-2012 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 260 by NoNukes
10-05-2012 6:39 PM


Re: Numerology..
This type of reasoning is what I refer to as "Bible Worship".

No it is not "Bible Worship." It is exploring the significance of numbers in Scripture.

I only added it as a measure of interest to some more open minded readers who may be reading along. I would not push such a significance too far with a brand newcomer to Scripture.

But that some numbers do carry significance is apparently the view of Jesus Himself when He reminded His disciples of the loaves and fish miracles:

" And Jesus ... said, Why are you reasoning among yourselves, you of little faith, because you have no bread?

Do you not yet understand nor remember the five loaves of the five thousand and how many handbaskets you took up?

Nor the seven loaves of the four thousand and how many baskets you took up? " (Matt. 16:8-10)

It seems that Jesus here expects the disciples to contemplate not only the miracles but the numbers of things associated with them. This, and the fact the the OT is often very exact in specifications of measurements and lengths of things leads some of us to believe the Holy Spirit indicated some things in numbers.

While it may not be the first thing I would point to in trying to persuade someone of the truth of the Bible, it is nonetheless with some interest. This is the kind of thing - if you can recieve it OK. But if not, OK.


It is, in fact, numerology of the highest order. Eight people = day eight?? Really?

A methodology can be taken to an extreme. I would not leave you with an impression that I endorse every book on quack Bible codes or Bible numerology.

There is something here to it. But it could be abused also. I don't think I abused it. And my expounding pointed to Christ and not to 9/11 or Kennedy's assasination or UFOs or John Lennon's murder or some other irrelevant triviality, Nostradamus style.

Christ's resurrection is indeed a new beginning. And it falls on the first day of a new week by the world wide calender. It matched the 8 persons who emmerged saved.

But if you think that is too fanciful, that's OK. That Jesus saves from the judgment of God, from the wickedness of the world, and rose from the dead for our new beginning? This I would emphasize you should not ignore. Put the numners aside if you wish. Don't miss the greater point. Jesus is our ark of Noah.


I have trouble wrapping my head around the fact this is what some people mean by Bible study. So if there was no global flood, or if some detail of it is not as written in Genesis, then Jesus wasn't the son of God? Really?

Once again. The number matter I thought might be edifying to some readers curiously looking on in the discussion.

I'd like to think that not every regular poster here feels commissioned (the forum "good ol boy" culture) to debunk the Christian faith at every turn, on every thread no matter WHAT the topic is.

I'd like to think that occasionally one who has touched the reality of Christ or is seeking Christ sincerely, might be edified by one of these finer points.

I am not going to hard debate the number significance issue here now.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by NoNukes, posted 10-05-2012 6:39 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by NoNukes, posted 10-06-2012 2:53 PM jaywill has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 264 of 304 (675136)
10-06-2012 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by jaywill
10-06-2012 10:37 AM


Re: Numerology and snippets
I'd like to think that not every regular poster here feels commissioned (the forum "good ol boy" culture) to debunk the Christian faith at every turn, on every thread no matter WHAT the topic is.

Numerology is not the Christian faith. This "significance of numbers" is no different from astrology.

I am a Christian, and what I am debunking isn't the Christian faith. It's something completely different, and thankfully, it is inessential to what Christ taught. At best numerology is harmless, but at worst, it misses the entire point.

It seems that Jesus here expects the disciples to contemplate not only the miracles but the numbers of things associated with them. This, and the fact the the OT is often very exact in specifications of measurements and lengths of things leads some of us to believe the Holy Spirit indicated some things in numbers.

Once again, you demonstrate your ability to snippet the Bible. Jesus did not suggest that the specific numbers mentioned were of holy significance because they corresponded to any earthly or heavenly thing having those same numbers. He was pointing out that the disciples had missed the significance of a miracle performed before their eyes The miracle would have been the same if there had been six loaves and six thousand, with 200 handbaskets taken up after everyone had eaten.

I only added it as a measure of interest to some more open minded readers who may be reading along. I would not push such a significance too far with a brand newcomer to Scripture.

IMO, numerology shouldn't be pushed with anyone.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

It's not too late to register to vote. State Registration Deadlines


This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by jaywill, posted 10-06-2012 10:37 AM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by jaywill, posted 10-06-2012 9:22 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 233 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 265 of 304 (675145)
10-06-2012 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 264 by NoNukes
10-06-2012 2:53 PM


Re: Numerology and snippets

Numerology is not the Christian faith. This "significance of numbers" is no different from astrology.

Maybe the similarity is the other way around.
I have no doubt that the Creator seems to have tuned some numbers into creation for His own reasons.

And the significance of some numbers in Scripture is evident.
We are not using it to tell fortunes predict the future or events.

But taking the geneology of Christ in the book of Matthew. The author seems to have developed a scheme which reveals three stages of 14 generations each. But the actual count of generations is not actually as Matthew counts. By omissions and counting David in two catagories he comes up with the design.


"Thus all the generations from Abraham until David are fourteen generations, and from David until the deporation to Babylon, fourteen generations, and from the deportation to Babylon until the Christ, fourteen generations.

Hmmm, three catagories of people in Christ's geneology of 14 generations each. And he writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Don't tell me that no significance to the numbers is intended.

Twelve foundations to the city. Twelve manner of precious stones to the city. Twelve gates to the city. Twelve kinds of fruits borne by the tree of life in Revelation 21 and 22. Don't tell me that there is no significance to numbers in Revelation.

Seven churches in Revelation 2 and 3. Seven seals with seven trumpets with seven bowls of the wrath of God. Don't tell me there's no signigicance to numbers in the Bible.


I am a Christian, and what I am debunking isn't the Christian faith. It's something completely different, and thankfully, it is inessential to what Christ taught. At best numerology is harmless, but at worst, it misses the entire point.

With that statement I have little problem. With throwing out the baby with the bath water, I do have a problem.

And I don't use the significance of number use to distract from Christ. As you should have seen in my example, I used the 8th day and the 8 survivors in the ark to be related to the resurrection of Christ. It is essential.

The resurrection of Christ is very central to the Bible. So you'll have to find your "worst" misuses of number study somewhere else.


Once again, you demonstrate your ability to snippet the Bible.

"Snippets" as you call them, are also used by the Apostle Paul.
In one instance he builds a major concept on just the tense of a word whether it was plural or singular -

"But to Abraham were the promises spoken to his seed. He does not say, "And to the seeds," as concerning many, but as concerning one: "And to your seed," who is Christ " (Galatians 3:16)

How do you like that "snippet" there? Paul turns a major doctrinal concept just based on the presence or absence of one letter!


Jesus did not suggest that the specific numbers mentioned were of holy significance because they corresponded to any earthly or heavenly thing having those same numbers. He was pointing out that the disciples had missed the significance of a miracle performed before their eyes The miracle would have been the same if there had been six loaves and six thousand, with 200 handbaskets taken up after everyone had eaten.

I think He asked how many baskets they took up because it was significant. He could have been general. But He went over the amounts of things rather specifically.

While I admit that He did not elaborate. And we could err in attempting to elaborate, that it seems meaningful to Him is evident.

This is like Jesus writing in the sand in chapter 8. No one knows what He was writing. And we can only speculate. But it had some meaning I am sure.

While you regard 40 years in the wilderness, 40 days journey of Elijah, or 40 days of Christ in the wilderness as coincidental, I would say 40 has some relation to trial in relation to following God.

That's about the simplist example where you see coincidence but many other Bible students detect significance.

Or five wise virgins and five foolish ones.
Or five brothers left alive after the rich man went to Hades.

Significance of five, probably related to man's responsibility, is intended.

I have to dismiss your dismissal of numerical significance seen in Scripture. But if you find it a distraction, that is ok. I would not want you to be distracted from Christ in any way.

But speak of your own distraction.


IMO, numerology shouldn't be pushed with anyone.

The Holy Spirit saw to mention 12 in relation to a number of things in the New Jerusalem. So it invites some of us to consider these things with no sense of offending our Christian conscience.

I think you are over reacting.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by NoNukes, posted 10-06-2012 2:53 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
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Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 552 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 266 of 304 (703729)
07-29-2013 1:15 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Archangel
12-18-2011 3:57 PM


JC did NOT fulfill the messianic prophecies!
Bs'd

JC did NOT fulfill the messianic prophecies!

Here are a few examples:

Micha 5:2-9; "But thou Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel. And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for NOW shall he be great unto the ends of the earth. And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men. And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders. And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the LORD, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men. And the remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles in the midst of many people as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep: who, if he go through, both treadeth down, and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver. Thine hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off."

Here we have very clearly physical redemption from earthly enemies: "And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword", "Thine hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off." These are very clear verses that can not be misinterpreted; when the messiah comes the Jewish enemies are going to be slaughtered. And the one coming forth from Bethlehem is to be a ruler in Israel, that is a king, or maybe nowadays a president, but not a wandering preacher and miracle healer.

Zacheriah 9:9-10; "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass. And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth."

They say that he did ride on a donkey, like the whole Middle East in those days, but that is where it stops. He did not bring any peace, the battle bow, the horses and the chariots, symbols of war, were not cut off from Jerusalem, and his dominion was not from sea to sea and to the ends of the earth; as a matter of fact, he did not have any dominion at all.

In order to get around this problem, the Christian church invented the "second coming". However, nowhere in the Hebrew scriptures is it written that the messiah would come once, get himself killed, and come again in a second coming. This is a pure rationalization of Jesus' failure to function in any way as a messiah. Nowhere in any of the above prophecies does it indicate that there will be a gap of at least 2000 years between the birth of the messiah and the redemption. Nowhere does it speak about a messiah being tortured to death and coming back thousands of years later.

Jeremiah 23:5-6; "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS."

Jeremiah 33:14-16: "IN THOSE DAYS AND AT THAT TIME, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land. IN THOSE DAYS shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness."

When the branch of righteousness springs forth to David, when the messiah comes, THEN, IN THOSE DAYS, Judah will be saved and Jerusalem shall dwell safely. That means that it is impossible to squeeze in two thousand or more years between the coming of the messiah and the redemption of Judah and Jerusalem. Out goes the 'second coming'. However, there wasn't any redemption in the days of Jesus. Forty years after his death, in 70 CE, Jerusalem was totally destroyed by the Romans, the second Temple was burned down, and the Jews exiled. No way that the above prophecy was fulfilled.

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Isaiah 11; "And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious."

Also here we have a messiah who is going to kill the evil people: "And he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked." And after that we get the better world, when it says: "The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them etc." This is what is supposed to happen, as soon as there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse (the father of King David) and a Branch shall grow out of his roots; that is as soon as the messiah comes. Nowhere here is mentioned that the messiah will be killed and that these prophecies will happen at least 2000 years later. On the contrary; when the messiah comes redemption comes. And also for this messianic prophecy you don't have to be a brain surgeon or a rocket scientist in order to see that it is not fulfilled. Nothing of this all was done by Jesus. Conclusion: He was not the messiah.

In order to get around this problem, what the NT and the Christians do, is ripping Tanach texts which have no bearing whatsoever on the messiah, out of context, usually mistranslating them, and then presenting them as "messianic prophecies fulfilled by JC".

This is also what Archangel is doing.

I go deeper into this subject on this page: https://sites.google.com/site/777mountzion/324x0

For the NT doing the same thing, look here: https://sites.google.com/site/777mountzion/nt-prophecies

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In the service of Y-H-W-H,

Eliyahu, light unto the nations

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

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.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Archangel, posted 12-18-2011 3:57 PM Archangel has not yet responded

    
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 552 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 267 of 304 (703730)
07-29-2013 1:26 AM
Reply to: Message 259 by ramoss
10-05-2012 3:33 PM


Re: Contradictions in the Bible
Matthew is not ambiguous in his words - "Now all this happened so that what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet might be fulfilled, SAYING, "Behold, the virgin shall be with child and shall bear a son, and they shall call His name Emmanuek" (which is translated, God with us.)).

Yes, Matthew quoted from Isaiah ,using the Septuagint, to promote Jesus to a group of Hellenistic Jews. However, this is what is known as 'shoe horning', because if you read the actual passage, it has nothing to do with a virgin. The word 'parthenos' at the time Matthew used ti mainly meant Virgin, yes, but when Isaiah was first translated, a number of centuries earlier, it did not mainly carry that connotation. This is writing after the fact to retrofit concepts.. it is evidence that Matthew was selling the idea that Jesus was the Messiah, but he was misusing the Jewish scriptures by mistranslation and out of context quotes to do so. It might be evidence of the idea that Matthew was pushing.. but after the fact retrofitting is not particularly convincing.

As a matter of fact, I consider that method something called "LYING". To make his theological point, he LIED about the jewish scriptures.

Bs'd

Not only did Matthew lie about Isaiah 7:14, he lied about a lot more.

See here:

The NT brings us prophecies of which it claims that they are fulfilled by JC.

Let us take a closer look at those. The first one we find in Matthew 1:21; “she will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins." All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet: "Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel" (which means, God with us).”

This text can be found in Isaiah 7:14; “Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, a young woman shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Imman'u-el.” Revised Standard Version.

We see here that here in Isaiah is not spoken about a virgin, but about a young woman. It is of course much more normal that a young woman gets pregnant than that a virgin gets pregnant. But Isaiah clearly speaks about a young woman, and not a virgin. Some translations say, for instance the King James, say in Isaiah 7:14 “virgin”, and not “young woman”, but that is a wrong translation. The Hebrew word used in Isaiah 7:14 is “almah”, and that means “young woman”, and not virgin. The Hebrew word for virgin is “betulah”. That word is used for instance when the Torah speaks about Rebecca in Gen 24:16; “The maiden was very fair to look upon, a virgin, whom no man had known.”

This fact is recognized by many Christian Bible translators. For instance the New English Bible, the Good News Bible, the Revised Standard Version, and the New World Translation have translated this in the right way, and not as “virgin”.

So the NT has been misquoting the Hebrew Bible.
Nowhere in the Tanach (Tanach is compilation of the first letters of the three parts of the Hebrew Bible, Torah, Nevi'iem, (prophets), and Chetuviem, (writings)) is a virgin to be found who would get pregnant. In fact, NOWHERE in the Tanach does a virgin bear a child. This concept is only to found in pagan mythology.
And when we look at the whole chapter of Isaiah 7, then we see that it doesn't speak about the messiah. It speaks about God giving a sign to Achaz, that he will have peace in his days.
This chapter has no bearing on the messiah whatsoever.
What the NT does is ripping a text out of context, mistranslating it, and presenting it as a messianic prophecy.

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Next prophecy from the Tanach, as quoted by the NT:

Matt 2:14 “And he rose and took the child and his mother by night, and departed to Egypt, 15 and remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfil what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, "Out of Egypt have I called my son."”

Here a text from Hosea 11: 1 which says: “out of Egypt I called my son” is applied to the messiah.
But let's take a look WHO is the “son of God” in the Tanach: “And you shall say to Pharaoh, 'Thus says the LORD, Israel is my first-born son, and I say to you, "Let my son go that he may serve me"; if you refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay your first-born son.'" Exodus 4:22
This is clear language. And also in Hosea 11:1 it CLEARLY speaks about Israel, which has been led out of slavery from Egypt by God. See here Hosea 11:1 complete, and not a part ripped out of context: “When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.”
Just read the whole chapter of Hosea 11 and see that it all speaks about Israel, and not about the messiah.
What the NT is doing here once again is ripping a piece of text out of context which has no bearing on the messiah whatsoever, and then present it as a “messianic prophecy”. Something it obviously is not.
.

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Next prophecy from the Tanach, as quoted by the NT:

Matt 2:16-18 “Then Herod, when he saw that he had been tricked by the wise men, was in a furious rage, and he sent and killed all the male children in Bethlehem and in all that region who were two years old or under, according to the time which he had ascertained from the wise men. Then was fulfilled what was spoken by the prophet Jeremiah: “A voice was heard in Ramah, wailing and loud lamentation, Rachel weeping for her children; she refused to be consoled, because they were no more."”
Here the NT claims that Jeremiah 31:15 speaks about a slaughter of children, taking place in the days of the messiah.

And now read what is really happening there: Jeremiah 31: “10 "Hear the word of the LORD, O nations, and declare it in the coastlands afar off; say, 'He who scattered Israel will gather him, and will keep him as a shepherd keeps his flock.' 11 For the LORD has ransomed Jacob, and has redeemed him from hands too strong for him. 12 They shall come and sing aloud on the height of Zion, and they shall be radiant over the goodness of the LORD, over the grain, the wine, and the oil, and over the young of the flock and the herd; their life shall be like a watered garden, and they shall languish no more. 13 Then shall the maidens rejoice in the dance, and the young men and the old shall be merry. I will turn their mourning into joy, I will comfort them, and give them gladness for sorrow. 14 I will feast the soul of the priests with abundance, and my people shall be satisfied with my goodness, says the LORD." 15 Thus says the LORD: "A voice is heard in Ramah, lamentation and bitter weeping. Rachel is weeping for her children; she refuses to be comforted for her children, because they are not." 16 Thus says the LORD: "Keep your voice from weeping, and your eyes from tears; for your work shall be rewarded, says the LORD, and they shall come back from the land of the enemy. 17 There is hope for your future, says the LORD, and your children shall come back to their own country.”

As everyone can see, this speaks about Israel which went into exile, and of whom God says that they will return from the exile back to the land of Israel.

Another text which has no bearing on the slaughter of children in the days of messiah which is ripped out of context by the NT and is presented to us as a “messianic prophecy”.
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Next prophecy from the Tanach, as quoted by the NT:

Matthew 2:23 “And he went and dwelt in a city called Nazareth, that what was spoken by the prophets might be fulfilled, "He shall be called a Nazarene."”

This prophecy won't take up much time, because you can go through the whole Hebrew Bible, and NOWHERE is it written that the messiah should live in Nazareth, or the he should be called “Nazarene”.

So the NT is also giving non-existing prophecies.

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Next prophecy from the Tanach, as quoted by the NT:

Matthew 26:14-15 "Then one of the twelve, who is called Judas Iscariot, having gone unto the chief priests, said, `What are ye willing to give me, and I will deliver him up to you?' and they weighed out to him thirty silverlings,"

Matthew 27: "3 When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty silver coins to the chief priests and the elders. 4 "I have sinned," he said, "for I have betrayed innocent blood." "What is that to us?" they replied. "That's your responsibility." 5 So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself. 6 The chief priests picked up the coins and said, "It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money." 7 So they decided to use the money to buy the potter's field as a burial place for foreigners. 8 That is why it has been called the Field of Blood to this day. 9Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: "They took the thirty silver coins, the price set on him by the people of Israel, 10 and they used them to buy the potter's field, as the Lord commanded me."

This OT text can by found in Zech 11:12 "I told them, "If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces of silver. 13 And the LORD said to me, "Throw it to the potter"-the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the LORD to the potter."

As we see here in Zechariah, there is no messiah to be seen who is being betrayed for 30 pieces of silver. And no potters fields are being bought in Zechariah.
As a matter of fact, in all of this text in Zechariah is no potter to be found.

No potter to be found?

No potter to be found.

The above translation of Zechariah 11:12 is from the New International Version. It says that Zechariah threw the money to the "potter" in the Temple.
In the Hebrew is written "yotseer". That can mean "potter", but it can also mean "treasurer".
In the Temple weren't any potters sitting around. Who was sitting there, was a treasurer, who accepted the gifts for the Temple.
So Zechariah doesn't speak about a potter, but about a treasurer.
This fact is recognized by the Revised Standard Version, it says here "treasurer" in stead of "potter".
Also Youngs Literal Translation says here "treasurer", and also the Contemporary English Version says here "treasury".
The Stone Edition of the Tanach says: "HASHEM (literally: "The Name) said to me, "Throw it to the treasurer of the Precious Stronghold which I have divested from them". So I threw it into the Temple of HASHEM, to the treasurer."
Also the New World Translation of the Watch Tower Society gives a good translation: At that, J-e-h-o-v-a-h said to me: “Throw it to the treasury—the majestic value with which I have been valued from their standpoint.” Accordingly I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw it into the treasury at the house of J-e-h-o-v-a-h."

So what we see here, is that there is no "potter" in Zechariah, and that the whole NT story about buying land of a potter has no bearing whatsoever on the text in Zechariah.

Also we have here a clear proof that the NT text is so orchestrated that it looks as if it fulfills OT prophecies. But because of the fact that they make here another mistake in the translation, the set up is clear to see for everybody.

And there is more. Look again to Matthew 27 and see what the Christians won't tell you: "9 Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: "They took the thirty silver coins, the price set on him by the people of Israel, 10 and they used them to buy the potter's field, as the Lord commanded me."

So here we see that Matthew claims that this text comes from Jeremiah, when in truth, it comes from Zechariah.
Another slip up of the New Testament which is supposedly divinely inspired.

Matthew was not capable of naming the right prophet.
And this is supposed to "proof" that JC is the messiah.

Well, with friends like Matthew, you don't need enemies anymore.
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Next prophecy from the Tanach, as quoted by the NT:

Luke 24: “44 Then he said to them, "These are my words which I spoke to you, while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the law of Moses and the prophets and the psalms must be fulfilled." 45 Then he opened their minds to understand the scriptures, 46 and said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, 47 and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be preached in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.”

But the problem is: NOWHERE in the Tanach is it written that “the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be preached in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.”

Another NT quote of OT prophecy which is nowhere to be found in the OT.

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In the service of Y-H-W-H,

Eliyahu, light unto the nations

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

.

.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by ramoss, posted 10-05-2012 3:33 PM ramoss has not yet responded

    
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 552 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 268 of 304 (703731)
07-29-2013 1:35 AM
Reply to: Message 265 by jaywill
10-06-2012 9:22 PM


Re: Numerology and snippets
"But to Abraham were the promises spoken to his seed. He does not say, "And to the seeds," as concerning many, but as concerning one: "And to your seed," who is Christ " (Galatians 3:16)

How do you like that "snippet" there? Paul turns a major doctrinal concept just based on the presence or absence of one letter!

Bs'd

The most amazing part however, is that it is plain wrong.

Look at the next text: " in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is upon the seashore; "
Gen 22:17

The word "seed" is in the singular, but it will be "as the stars of the heaven."

Many times in the Tanach is the word "seed" used for multiple offspring.

So that piece of exegesis of Paul is totally of the mark.

.

.

In the service of Y-H-W-H,

Eliyahu, light unto the nations

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

.

.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by jaywill, posted 10-06-2012 9:22 PM jaywill has not yet responded

    
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 552 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 269 of 304 (703732)
07-29-2013 1:43 AM
Reply to: Message 256 by Granny Magda
10-04-2012 10:57 AM


Ripping random texts out of context and presenting them as "messianic prophecies"
This is close enough for me to accept the prophet's word about a virgin being with child ... Emmanuel, having a dual fulfillment in Isaiah's child and in the birth of the Son of God.

Huh? There's no link between the two. they're from totally different authors, writing about different subjects at different times. You're acting as though the Bible were a single monolithic source; it's not, it's a patchwork of many different sources, by differing authors with differing intents. I think that your whole approach to reading these books is fundamentally flawed at that this is encouraging you to make serious errors.

Bs'd

Exactly.

And of course, when you randomly take Tanach texts which have no bearing on the messiah, and rip them out of context, and then mistranslate them, and then say they are messianic prophecies because of "dual fulfillment", then you can make everybody you want the messiah, whether it is Napoleon Bonaparte, Barak Obama, David Koresh, or the rooster of Moshe:

A Chassidic Rabbi Makes a Startling Discovery

My name is Moshe and I am a Chassidic Jew who has, from my youth, learned the words of our Holy Prophets, and has been puzzled by their meaning.
Then, on the day before Yom Kippur, I contemplated the solemnity of the day and was made aware of the amazing meaning of G-d's words. I recognized the fulfillment of 42 Messianic prophecies of the Tenach, and they changed my life forever.

1. Early in the morning I went to get my rooster to fulfill the ancient custom. There in the light I looked into his eyes and saw fulfilled the words, 'I am the rooster* who has seen affliction.' (Lam. 3:1)

2. I took him and swung him around my head as the verse says, 'And he circled his head**.' (Lam 3:5)

3. I moved my hands as I swirled him, as it says, 'Only against me did he turn his hand.' (Lam 3:3)

4. With this he leaped from my hand and started to run. As it says, 'They have run away without seeing good.' (Job 9:25)

5. I cried a short pray to HaShem as it says, 'My words I say out of the bitterness of my soul.' (Job 10:1)

6. He ran from me, fulfilling the verse, 'To me they showed their back and not their face.' (Jer. 32:33)

7/8. I borrowed a cane from a man near me so as to catch him with the rounded edge, as the verse says, 'And Moshe took the stick.' (Ex. 4:20, Num 20:8)

9/10. I tried to catch him with the hook, but only the blows of the cane hit his back as it says, 'Afflicted by the rod of his anger.' (Lam. 3:1 and it also says, 'I struck you with the blows of an enemy.' (Jer. 30:12)

11. He turned to me and I got him right on the cheek fulfilling the verse, 'I have offered my cheek to the one who strikes me.' (Lam. 3:30)

12. He ran from me into a dark corner and I followed after him, as the verse says, 'He has led me and driven me into the darkness and not light.'
(Lam. 3:2)

13. I had him there in the corner as it says; 'All her pursuers overtook her in the small place.' (Lam. 1:3)

14. He stood there silent, as he had been to this time in fulfillment of the words of the prophet, 'He was persecuted and afflicted, be he did not open his mouth.' (Is. 53:7)

15. In that corner there was just nowhere for him to hide from me as the verse says, 'Can a person hide in a concealed place, and I should not see him?' (Jer. 23:25)

16. He was now trapped as the verse says, 'He has walled me in so I cannot escape.' (Lam. 3:7)

17. In his eyes I could see him praying silently to HaShem, 'My G-d my G-d why have you forsaken me?' (Psalm 22:1)

18. Clearly it was fulfilled for him, 'The mighty ones of Bashan encircle me.' (Psalm 22:13)

19. I grabbed him and he started to call out to HaShem.
As the verse says, 'My G-d, I call to you by day and you do not answer and by night and there is no respite.' (Psalm 22:3)

20. But there was no answer as it says, 'Though I would scream out and plead he shut out my prayer.' (Lam. 3:8)

21. It was clearly the end. I grabbed him and took my place in the line waiting to give my rooster to the shochet (ritual slaughterer.) He was silent, 'Like a sheep being led to the slaughter or a ewe to her sharers he did not open his mouth.' (Is. 53:7)

22. The shochet took him by the neck as it says; 'He grasped me by the neck.' (Job 16:12)

23. With that he screamed out, 'Be not far from me because distress is near and there is none to help me.' (Psalm 22:12)

24. He also said, 'Save my soul from the sword.' (Psalm 22:21)

25. He slaughtered him fulfilling 'He was removed from the living land.' (Is. 53:8)

26. He let the blood fall on the floor, as it says, 'I am poured out like water.' (Psalm 22:15)

27. I took the dead chicken and gazed at it as the prophet says, 'They have looked upon me whom they have pierced.' (Zech 12:10)

28/29. I took it to be made kosher. We separated it into pieces snapping it's bones as the verses say, 'All my bones became disjointed.' (Psalm 22:15) 'He has broken my bones.' (Lam 3:4)

30. Then I took him home to cook. My wife removed the skin as it says, 'He has worn away my flesh and skin.' (Lam. 3:4)

31. She placed him in a pot with water, as it says, 'For the waters have reached unto my soul.' (Psalm 69:2)

32. She added many spices as it says, 'And she gave ...many spices.' (1 Kings 10:10)

33. She covered up the pot so it could cook as it says; 'He has placed me in darkness.' (Lam 3:6)

34. The smell of it filled the room as it says, 'That the spices may flow out.' (Song 4:16)

35. After that it was served on the table and we gazed upon it as the verse says, 'I count my bones and they gaze and look upon me.' (Psalm 22:18)

36. He was divided among the members of my family, as it says, 'Therefore I will divide him among the many.' (Is. 53:12)

37/38. We rejoiced and sang as we ate him, as it says, 'I have become a thing of laughter for my people, they sing all day long.' (Lam. 3:14) 'In him our hearts were joyful.' (Psalm 33:21)

39/40/41. After which we were full and praised G-d as it says, 'You shall eat and be satisfied and praise HaShem your G-d.' (Deut. 6:11,8:10,11:15).

42. We truly saw the goodness of G-d as it say, 'You should taste and see that HaShem is good.' (Psalm 34:9)

There were many more messianic prophecies that I could have added that applied to my messianic rooster. Many more he will fulfill when he comes back.

In all seriousness the above example is no different then the lists claiming 200/300/400 prophecies fulfilled by Jesus. They claim the odds against a single person fulfilling them are astronomical. Or of their claims that passages like Psalms 22, or Isaiah 53 are about their messiah/god. Consider this well when you see or hear the claims made by missionaries or just simple Christians who you may meet. If not there may be a prophecy that does really apply: 'They are a people bereft of council and they don't have understanding.'

* In Hebrew the word 'gever' means both 'man' and 'rooster'berew
** In Hebrew the word is resh aleph shin, which can be read as 'rosh' head'

(c) Moshe Shulman, 2000

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by Granny Magda, posted 10-04-2012 10:57 AM Granny Magda has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-29-2013 2:08 AM Eliyahu has responded

    
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13057
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 270 of 304 (703735)
07-29-2013 2:08 AM
Reply to: Message 269 by Eliyahu
07-29-2013 1:43 AM


Re: Ripping random texts out of context and presenting them as "messianic prophecies"
What are you accomplishing here, really? Are you helping anyone get closer to God? (I didn't think so.) Shame.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by Eliyahu, posted 07-29-2013 1:43 AM Eliyahu has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by Eliyahu, posted 07-29-2013 3:13 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
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