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Author Topic:   The Annual War over Christmas -- by christians
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 44 of 63 (645078)
12-23-2011 12:37 AM


Scrooge Weighs In
The term, Christmas, i.e. Christ-mass, literally implicates Eucharist or the Lord's supper/communion of the breaking of the bread and drinking the wine etc, commemorating the death of Jesus. How does that equate to the birth of Jesus???
The timing of it has pagan origins. Nevertheless, I agree that some aspects of it can be applied to Christianity. I don't make a judgment call on that.
The apostle Paul, in Colossians 2:16, said:
American Standard Version
quote:
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a feast day or a new moon or a sabbath day:
The Roman Emperor Constantine professed Christianity in the year 312? or so after he won a battle, before which he had an unusual revelation. I don't remember the specifics. He became the first pontifix maximus (pope), declaring that there should be only one religion. Thus he became ruler of both the only lawful church and the state/empire.
So as to keep the peace in the empire he mingled some paganism into Christianity. For example, in 325, at the Council of Nicaea he persuaded those present that Easter should be celebrated by all as a holiday (holy day). This would suffice to placate both Christians and pagans since spring time was significant to some of the pagan gods as noted in the link.
The link also explains why the sabbath was changed from the 7th day to Sunday, i.e. Sun-day, significant to sun worshipers. I've cited this to say that the precedence was early established in the RCC to adopt some paganism into Christianity.
Again, however, as per Colossians 2:16 above, we are not to judge one another regarding which day is kept or whether any day is kept, on that count .
The cut and decorated tree is referenced in the OT ancient times by the prophet, Jeremiah in chapter 10. It applied to pagan worship by pagans in the nations.
In the 14th or 15th century it first began to be related to the RCC and later, gradually by protestants.
Jeremiah 10:1-5
quote:
Hear what the Lord says to you, O house of Israel. [2] This is what the Lord says: "Do not learn the ways of the nations or be terrified by signs in the sky, though the nations are terrified by them. [3] For the customs of the peoples are worthless; they cut a tree out of the forest, and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel. [4] They adorn it with silver and gold; they fasten it with hammer and nails so it will not totter. [5] Like a scarecrow in a melon patch, their idols cannot speak; they must be carried because they cannot walk. Do not fear them; they can do no harm nor can they do any good."
My family has celebrated Christmas as a tradition. All of my relatives and my boys still do. I don't judge others on this count, as there are some aspects of it that can be applicable to Biblical doctrines.
My wife and I have not had a tree for quite a few years now. For ourselves, we see it as something that God is not please with, as per the Jeremiah text.
However, when we visit the boys or anyone else, we never bring it up or make an issue of it, unless it is something that is mutually discussed. We do exchange gifts and celebrate it, relating it to the birth of Jesus, though tis not really the season of his birth.
I agree with Sun Deist and others who see it as related to paganism, more-so than Christianity. The same goes with Sun-day, and Easter, etc. All of our holiday (holy day) celebrations are pagan in origin, for that matter.
Those who participated in the Cavediver vs Buzsaw Freeforall thread may have noticed that my final message was a season/Christmas message, in which I wished all Christians a blessed Christmas and to all a happy holiday season. (I extend the same greeting here to those who did not see it. ) Admittedly, the fact remains, that the timing of it relates more to paganism than to Christianity.
To summarize, holiday/holy day more accurately applies to both pagans and Christians, in that it can be regarded by either as a holy day.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-23-2011 5:59 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 46 by caffeine, posted 12-23-2011 7:55 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 49 by RAZD, posted 12-23-2011 2:55 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 61 by Artemis Entreri, posted 01-04-2012 11:55 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 63 (645170)
12-23-2011 11:14 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by caffeine
12-23-2011 7:55 AM


Re: Scrooge Weighs In
caffien writes:
Constantine wasn't the first Pontifex Maximus, and he didn't acquire this position due to his conversion. Pontifex Maximus was the traditional post of the leader of religious life in Rome. He was the one with the job of arranging religious festivals. It was originally a temporary position but, like many of Rome's significant public offices, it was one of the titles taken by Augustus at the creation of the Empire that was inherited by subsequent emperors. You're right that it was in his role as Pontifex Maximus that Constantine Christianized the festivals of Rome. The Emperor Gratian gave up the title of Pontifex a few decades later, recognising that religious things were the province of the Church, and the Bishops of Rome took the title for themselves.
He summoned together the bishops of the empire to Rome, presiding over the First Council of Nicea. This was the first conclave of Rome which centralized the bishopric, over which Constantine presided.
This council established the creeds and doctrines which were to be the offical positon if the ecumenical bishric. Easter was to be established as a holiday/holy day. Two dissenters of some creeds imposed were banished.
Pontifix Maximus as per the Wiki encyclopedia was the chief of the college of bishops or the chief of the bishops. Some websites depict him as the first pope. Others do not. Nevertheless he served as the first centralized chief of the bishops of the empire.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by caffeine, posted 12-23-2011 7:55 AM caffeine has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by jar, posted 12-24-2011 9:04 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 63 (645242)
12-24-2011 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by jar
12-24-2011 9:04 AM


Re: Scrooge Weighs In
jar writes:
The Council of Nicaea was not held in Rome but rather in "Nicaea" which is in Turkey.
Constantine called the Bishops together but did not preside over any of the meetings or even have a vote.
Easter was already a holiday, the issue since it is a floating holiday was to agree on the method to calculate when Easter fell.
The Council of Nicaea did not centralize the Bishopric.
Thanks, Jar. I stand corrected on all, except the last. As I understand, the First Council of Nicaea was the first of any event, calling all of the bishops from the nations of the Roman Empire to one assembly, essentially setting a precedent for the establishment of one empirical universal church which the RCC began to be.
Constantine, a pre-Christian pagan, despised the Jews and rejected their 7th day sabbath. He was a sun worshiper. Sun-day was their holy day. This and Easter, etc are examples of how he corrupted the bishoprics with paganism. Thus, to this day, Christianity, to lesser and greater degrees, has been corrupted, particularly the RCC.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by jar, posted 12-24-2011 9:04 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by jar, posted 12-24-2011 4:46 PM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied
 Message 56 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-24-2011 7:46 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
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