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Author Topic:   The Annual War over Christmas -- by christians
rueh
Member (Idle past 3661 days)
Posts: 382
From: universal city tx
Joined: 03-03-2008


Message 16 of 63 (644920)
12-21-2011 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by RAZD
12-21-2011 2:37 PM


Re: Why December 25th?
Hello Zen Deist,
Do you agree that these Yule tide customs and timing have been adopted from other beliefs?
Yes.
Do you agree that some Christians are trying to take over the celebrations and festivals from other cultures, traditions and beliefs?
No. I think that the celebrations and festivals have already been taken over. At this point, Christians or anyone who celebrates Christmas are only celebrating their own traditions. The first recorded history for a Christmas tree goes back as far as 1441. Over the years the exact specifics of the tree and celebration have changed but the overall tradition remains. I believe that qualifies as being around long enough to justify calling it their own tradition, as opposed to taking over others traditions.

'Qui non intelligit, aut taceat, aut discat'
The mind is like a parachute. It only works when it is open.-FZ
The industrial revolution, flipped a bitch on evolution.-NOFX
Opening your mind to imagination shouldn't close it to reality.
It takes all kinds to make a mess- Benjamin Hoff

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by RAZD, posted 12-21-2011 2:37 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by RAZD, posted 12-21-2011 5:07 PM rueh has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 17 of 63 (644921)
12-21-2011 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by jar
12-21-2011 2:03 PM


Re: biblical references are for protestants.
Hi jar,
Benedict XVI's Christmas Message writes:
"The Word became flesh". The proclamation of Christmas is also a light for all peoples, for the collective journey of humanity. "Emmanuel", God-with-us, has come as King of justice and peace.
I'm confused, does this mean that Pope Benedict XVI started the Christian War over midwinter festivities by celebrating a Christ Mass at this time?
http://www.vatican.va/...io_20050419_short-biography_en.html
quote:
BIOGRAPHY OF HIS HOLINESS, POPE BENEDICT XVI
Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, Pope Benedict XVI, was born at Marktl am Inn, Diocese of Passau (Germany) on 16 April 1927 (Holy Saturday) and was baptised on the same day.
It seems to me that his proclamations were made long after Christians started taking over "Christmas" from older beliefs?
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by jar, posted 12-21-2011 2:03 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 18 of 63 (644922)
12-21-2011 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by jar
12-21-2011 2:03 PM


Re: biblical references are for protestants.
Is the Pope Catholic?

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 Message 10 by jar, posted 12-21-2011 2:03 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(2)
Message 19 of 63 (644924)
12-21-2011 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by RAZD
12-21-2011 2:56 PM


Re: biblical references are for protestants.
I have little problem blaming him, after all, what is the point of having guilt if you cannot delegate it?
But no, that post was simply a response to the assertion that " biblical references are for protestants. "
Christianity has a long, honored tradition of simply taking over most everything from earlier religions. After all, Christianity remade Passover into Easter, Shavout into Pentecost.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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frako
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


(1)
Message 20 of 63 (644927)
12-21-2011 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by RAZD
12-21-2011 2:30 PM


Re: Gift Giving
Presumably symbolizing the three wisemen bearing offerings for a new god?
Nope you have Grandpa cold
Santa claus
and Miklau
santa claus and miklau are from the christian side grandpa cold is just a guy that they invented so none christians are not left out but most get gifts from all 3

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(3)
Message 21 of 63 (644929)
12-21-2011 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by RAZD
12-21-2011 2:37 PM


Re: Why December 25th?
Do you agree that some Christians are trying to take over the celebrations and festivals from other cultures, traditions and beliefs?
Isn't it common knowledge that, when converting other cultures, Christians, instead of elimiating, simply adopted the local customs and doctored them up into their own?

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Replies to this message:
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 Message 28 by Taq, posted 12-21-2011 5:58 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 59 by Artemis Entreri, posted 01-04-2012 11:06 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


(1)
Message 22 of 63 (644933)
12-21-2011 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by New Cat's Eye
12-21-2011 4:04 PM


Re: Why December 25th?
Isn't it common knowledge that, when converting other cultures, Christians, instead of elimiating, simply adopted the local customs and doctored them up into their own?
Yea especialy when it comes to christmas just about everything in christmas is adopted from other cultures its like you put them all in a blender ran it for an hour then stamped jesuses name on it.

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-21-2011 4:04 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 63 (644934)
12-21-2011 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by frako
12-21-2011 4:27 PM


Re: Why December 25th?
Yea especialy when it comes to christmas just about everything in christmas is adopted from other cultures its like you put them all in a blender ran it for an hour then stamped jesuses name on it.
A lot of cultural shit goes down this time of year, what with the whole solstice thing.
"Everybody is having parties already, instead of trying to cancel all these parties, lets just convince them to keep the party, but do it for Jesus instead."
Ain't that a brilliant way to forward your religion!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by frako, posted 12-21-2011 4:27 PM frako has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by frako, posted 12-21-2011 4:36 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 24 of 63 (644936)
12-21-2011 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by New Cat's Eye
12-21-2011 4:30 PM


Re: Why December 25th?
Ain't that a brilliant way to forward your religion!
I wonder what our god hasto say about that
dint someone provide a qote from the bible that said god does not want zou to decorate trees as a holidaz

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-21-2011 4:30 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 63 (644940)
12-21-2011 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by frako
12-21-2011 4:36 PM


Re: Why December 25th?
I wonder what our god hasto say about that
dint someone provide a qote from the bible that said god does not want zou to decorate trees as a holidaz
Oh no he dint!
Jeremiahs talking specifically about making idols... Christmas trees aren't for worshiping.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 26 of 63 (644944)
12-21-2011 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by rueh
12-21-2011 2:54 PM


Happy Holidays celebrates ALL beliefs and traditions.
Hi reuh
Yes.
Excellent.
No. I think that the celebrations and festivals have already been taken over. At this point, Christians or anyone who celebrates Christmas are only celebrating their own traditions. The first recorded history for a Christmas tree goes back as far as 1441. Over the years the exact specifics of the tree and celebration have changed but the overall tradition remains. I believe that qualifies as being around long enough to justify calling it their own tradition, ...
Please note what I said in the Opening Post:
quote:
Message 1: I support the churches right to have a separate ceremony, and their right to call it whatever they want to ... I do NOT support a church telling a state or any other person what to call their tree or celebration.
A church can have their own celebration, but they cannot say what a US state (or other US) government celebration has to be or what it is called.
... as opposed to taking over others traditions.
We have established that there are many faiths, beliefs, traditions, celebrations and cultures that occur during the midwinter\solstice\yuletide period. If in any doubt, see:
Winter solstice - Wikipedia
quote:
The seasonal significance of the winter solstice is in the reversal of the gradual lengthening of nights and shortening of days. Depending on the shift of the calendar, the winter solstice usually occurs on December 21 to 23 each year in the Northern Hemisphere, and June 20 to 23 in the Southern Hemisphere.[3]
Worldwide, interpretation of the event has varied from culture to culture, but most cultures have held a recognition of rebirth, involving holidays, festivals, gatherings, rituals or other celebrations around that time.[4]
and
List of multinational festivals and holidays - Wikipedia
quote:
Many festivals of light take place in this period since the shortest day of the year in the northern hemisphere is the Winter Solstice. The time of year is generally referred to as the holiday season, which is where the term "Happy Holidays" originated.
In the US the "Holiday Season" generally runs from Thanksgiving to New Year's Day, and this is properly celebrated with a "Happy Holidays" greeting.
Thus when a state government advertises and has a "Holiday Tree Lighting Ceremony" this is respectful of ALL faiths, beliefs, traditions, celebrations and cultures ... covering a period of time spanning the dates of many celebrations, including Christianity's birth celebration mass (even though there is no calendar day link between that purported event and the 25th of December).
AND, when pundits and religious leaders talk about a "War on Christmas" - and claim that such celebrations of a "Holiday Tree Lighting Ceremony" are part of a "War on Christmas" -- they are actually talking about their war against other faiths, beliefs, traditions, celebrations and cultures.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by rueh, posted 12-21-2011 2:54 PM rueh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by rueh, posted 12-22-2011 8:40 AM RAZD has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 802 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


(1)
Message 27 of 63 (644947)
12-21-2011 5:24 PM


Blasphemy!
It is blasphemy to call any celebration that is to occur in a matter of days a "midwinter" one since, here in mighty Wisconsin, WE HAVE NO GODDAMNED SNOW YET!!! What is solstice/christmas/whatever without bloody snow?????? This is preposterous!

Put the FSM back in Chrifsmas

Replies to this message:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 28 of 63 (644952)
12-21-2011 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by New Cat's Eye
12-21-2011 4:04 PM


Re: Why December 25th?
quote:
Isn't it common knowledge that, when converting other cultures, Christians, instead of elimiating, simply adopted the local customs and doctored them up into their own?
Unfortunately, common knowledge is not that common in some christian communities.
It always cracks me up when christians claim that Jesus is the "Reason for the Season". If we really went to the source, paganism is the "Reason for the Season". Just tell one of the Christmas defenders that and watch their feathers ruffle.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 30 by Chuck77, posted 12-22-2011 3:42 AM Taq has replied
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Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


(2)
Message 29 of 63 (644980)
12-22-2011 3:35 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Taq
12-21-2011 5:58 PM


Taq writes:
quote:
If we really went to the source, paganism is the "Reason for the Season".
I thought the axial tilt of the earth was the reason for the season.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
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Chuck77
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 63 (644981)
12-22-2011 3:42 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Taq
12-21-2011 5:58 PM


Re: Why December 25th?
Taq writes:
It always cracks me up when christians claim that Jesus is the "Reason for the Season". If we really went to the source, paganism is the "Reason for the Season". Just tell one of the Christmas defenders that and watch their feathers ruffle.
Sorry Taq, no one's ruffles are getting feathered. It was of pagen origin, who cares. Everyone knows dude. The Christians thought they would spice things up some and create a holiday along side the pagen one with the good news of the birth of Jesus and add some hope to a dying world. Mission accomplished ehe?
It seems Jesus IS the reason for the season. Look around Taq.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Taq, posted 12-21-2011 5:58 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
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