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Author Topic:   Evidence for Evolution: Whale evolution
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 346 of 443 (804503)
04-10-2017 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 345 by PaulK
04-10-2017 4:08 PM


Such small changes are not evolution. The bacterial change involves a single mutation, that's not evolution. The ToE assumes the capacity for changes in the basic structure of the creature, which has never been shown, and as I've argued umpteen times here really can't happen because of the loss of information change requires.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 345 by PaulK, posted 04-10-2017 4:08 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 347 by PaulK, posted 04-10-2017 4:25 PM Faith has replied
 Message 351 by Tangle, posted 04-10-2017 4:59 PM Faith has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 347 of 443 (804504)
04-10-2017 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 346 by Faith
04-10-2017 4:11 PM


quote:
Such small changes are not evolution. The bacterial change involves a single mutation, that's not evolution
That obviously is evolution - even if you rule out a single mutation slime the fact that it is beneficial and spread by natural selection is absolutely enough to make it evolution.
quote:
The ToE assumes the capacity for changes in the basic structure of the creature, which has never been shown, and as I've argued umpteen times here really can't happen because of the loss of information change requires
Arguments that don't even make sense can't overcome evidence. Your faith in your "fallen human mind" is amazing - remember when you decided that your interpretation of a map you couldn't even read properly was infallibly right ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 346 by Faith, posted 04-10-2017 4:11 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 348 by Faith, posted 04-10-2017 4:40 PM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 348 of 443 (804505)
04-10-2017 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 347 by PaulK
04-10-2017 4:25 PM


Definitional word games are a favorite here I know, but macroevolution doesn't exist and all the evidence is nothing but microevolution. One mutation in bacteria is not evolution as the ToE leads us to expect.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 347 by PaulK, posted 04-10-2017 4:25 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 349 by PaulK, posted 04-10-2017 4:47 PM Faith has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 349 of 443 (804506)
04-10-2017 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 348 by Faith
04-10-2017 4:40 PM


quote:
Definitional word games are a favorite here I know,
You seem to like them. But pointing out obvious facts is hardly a game.
quote:
but macroevolution doesn't exist and all the evidence is nothing but microevolution.
According to your personal opinions. Me, I'm sticking with science.
quote:
One mutation in bacteria is not evolution as the ToE leads us to expect.
Really ? Aren't the occurrence of beneficial mutations and the power of natural selection to spread them the core of evolutionary theory ? Antibiotic resistance is a clear example of evolution. The fact that it is only a small-scale example hardly changes that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 348 by Faith, posted 04-10-2017 4:40 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 350 by Faith, posted 04-10-2017 4:54 PM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 350 of 443 (804507)
04-10-2017 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 349 by PaulK
04-10-2017 4:47 PM


What I said is simply a fact: The only evidence is microevolution. According to science. There is no evidence of any change except within a Species.
One mutation is not evidence of the ToE.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 349 by PaulK, posted 04-10-2017 4:47 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 352 by PaulK, posted 04-10-2017 5:05 PM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 351 of 443 (804508)
04-10-2017 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 346 by Faith
04-10-2017 4:11 PM


Faith writes:
Such small changes are not evolution. The bacterial change involves a single mutation, that's not evolution. The ToE assumes the capacity for changes in the basic structure of the creature, which has never been shown, and as I've argued umpteen times here really can't happen because of the loss of information change requires.
Gene mutation that causes phenotype change followed by selection which changes the population has been shown. That's the basic model for all evolutionary change demonstrated in real life today.
quote:
Message 1 of 76 (785287)
Thursday, 02-06-2016 3:38 AM
After 15 years of analysis and experimentation the gene mutation that was responsible for the change in colour of the peppered moth from white to black has been found.
This is a really important conformation of the theory of evolution - it demonstrates not only the process of natural selection but also the role of beneficial, random, genetic mutation.
The colour change wasn't simply the result of gene plasticity, the actual mutation that occurred in an individual has been located and dated (1819 +/- 10). The date puts it exactly where you would expect it - the height of the industrial revolution when everything was soot stained and black.
Famous peppered moth's dark secret revealed - BBC News
So we all the fossil evidence and now we have the mechanism that creates change in species observed.
It's all there Faith, you can complain and twist and turn all you like, but it's all there.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 346 by Faith, posted 04-10-2017 4:11 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 354 by Faith, posted 04-10-2017 5:09 PM Tangle has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 352 of 443 (804509)
04-10-2017 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 350 by Faith
04-10-2017 4:54 PM


quote:
What I said is simply a fact: The only evidence is microevolution.
A "fact" that has been known to be false since Darwin.
quote:
According to science. There is no evidence of any change except within a Species.
No, science fully accepts common ancestry of all life, with maybe some complications around the very earliest life. Because of the evidence. Check any recent biology textbook that covers the subject if you don't believe me.
quote:
One mutation is not evidence of the ToE.
Antibiotic resistance is not "one mutation". Usually one mutation is enough to confer some resistance but even in a single example other mutations can expect to be added. But antibiotic resistance is something that frequently occurs and often with different mutations - even if the antibiotic is the same the mutations that give resistance need not be.
So, antibiotic resistance is an example of evolution occurring and that in itself makes it evidence for the theory. (If you only mean that it isn't direct evidence of common ancestry you should say that. Not that it matters because nobody claims that it is.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 350 by Faith, posted 04-10-2017 4:54 PM Faith has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 353 of 443 (804510)
04-10-2017 5:08 PM


Topic Reminder
I'm not planning to step in as moderator at this point, but I would like to remind folks that the topic is the evidence for whale evolution.
--Percy

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 354 of 443 (804511)
04-10-2017 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 351 by Tangle
04-10-2017 4:59 PM


Gene mutation that causes phenotype change followed by selection which changes the population has been shown. That's the basic model for all evolutionary change demonstrated in real life today.
That's not exactly how it works but I don't want to get into a big flap about mutation at this point so for the sake of argument I accept it, but that describes only microevolution which is not in dispute. Only macroevolution is in dispute. So no, change that fits the ToE as usual has not been demonstrated and never will be.
The peppered moths and the pocket mice also show that small-scale changes occur in a single gene that controls color. Not evidence for the ToE.
Fossil evidence is really a joke since you'd have to show that it's genetically possible to get from the complex reptile ear to the complex mammal ear, but all you have is the bones and the assumption that it happened. That's not science, and the bones alone cannot demonstrate the ToE.
ABE: This bickering could go on indefinitely but since Percy gave the reminder that this thread is about whale evolution this will be my last post here.
I don't want to get into the whale discussion but I thought it had been shown that the bones so wishfully called leg bones are actually stabliizers for the genital region.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 351 by Tangle, posted 04-10-2017 4:59 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 355 by PaulK, posted 04-10-2017 5:20 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 356 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-10-2017 5:53 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 357 by Tangle, posted 04-10-2017 6:14 PM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 355 of 443 (804512)
04-10-2017 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 354 by Faith
04-10-2017 5:09 PM


quote:
Fossil evidence is really a joke since you'd have to show that it's genetically possible to get from the complex reptile ear to the complex mammal ear, but all you have is the bones and the assumption that it happened. That's not science, and the bones alone cannot demonstrate the ToE.
On the contrary fossil evidence is very important. The fact that we have intermediate forms is very good evidence that the mammal ear evolved. A successful prediction of evolutionary theory. That IS science, and it is strong evidence for the theory of evolution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 354 by Faith, posted 04-10-2017 5:09 PM Faith has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 356 of 443 (804513)
04-10-2017 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 354 by Faith
04-10-2017 5:09 PM


Fossil evidence is really a joke since you'd have to show that it's genetically possible to get from the complex reptile ear to the complex mammal ear, but all you have is the bones and the assumption that it happened.
Obviously it's genetically possible: a sufficient number of mutations can turn any genome into any other genome.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 354 by Faith, posted 04-10-2017 5:09 PM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 357 of 443 (804514)
04-10-2017 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 354 by Faith
04-10-2017 5:09 PM


The problem we have Faith, is that if we could sit you down in front of an experiment that showed a population of primeval cows slowly turn into a population of whales and you still wouldn't believe it.
There is no amount of evidence that could shift your position. I wonder why we persist?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 354 by Faith, posted 04-10-2017 5:09 PM Faith has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 358 of 443 (804515)
04-10-2017 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 320 by Faith
04-08-2017 8:47 PM


Thank you for this information. It was brought to my attention by a couple of other posters that my understanding of the definition of "speciation" was wrong, so some of my previous posts may have come across as a tad nonsensical. I was aware that a species can split into groups that end up not being able to interbreed, but I didn't realise that this phenomenon is called"speciation".
"Speciation" strikes me as rather misleading term, which is hardly surprising, knowing that the only purpose of ToE is to mislead (it's purpose is obviously not to serve science, since ToE is useless to science).
One reason I indulge in forums like this is that my mistakes and misconceptions are exposed by other posters, which I can take on board and then make the necessary corrections.
However, I am not at all convinced that speciation means macroevolution is possible, as claimed by Darwinists. Greenish Warblers undergo speciation, but they are still Greenish Warblers; fruit flies undergo speciation, but they are still fruit flies.
Evolutionists love to take certain facts and apply wild extrapolation to them until the desired effect is achieved (apparently this is what passes for sound scientific procedure in Darwin World).
Some creation scientists have suggested that genetics, as you allude to, will eventually prove that macroevolution is impossible. Fascinating!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 320 by Faith, posted 04-08-2017 8:47 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 360 by jar, posted 04-10-2017 6:50 PM Dredge has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 359 of 443 (804516)
04-10-2017 6:43 PM
Reply to: Message 315 by Coyote
04-08-2017 8:08 PM


Actually, "speciation" is the wrong word to use here. Turns out it's not what I meant to say. I need to change my demand to:
"Please provide an example of how the removal of the belief that all life on earth evolved from a single-cell organism will change something useful in the real world."
-----------------------------
In answer to your question, religion is not science. My religion relies on faith and reason; science relies on just reason - unless it's Origins science, which required faith as well, which means it's not science, but pseudo-science or pseudo-religion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 315 by Coyote, posted 04-08-2017 8:08 PM Coyote has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 360 of 443 (804517)
04-10-2017 6:50 PM
Reply to: Message 358 by Dredge
04-10-2017 6:32 PM


Dredge writes:
Some creation scientists have suggested that genetics, as you allude to, will eventually prove that macroevolution is impossible.
there are no Creation Scientists and cannot be Creation Scientists. Anyone claiming to be a Creation Scientists is by definition a liar.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 358 by Dredge, posted 04-10-2017 6:32 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 370 by Dredge, posted 04-10-2017 7:55 PM jar has replied

  
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