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Author Topic:   Modern Civics
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 151 of 236 (648013)
01-12-2012 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by Jon
01-12-2012 3:32 PM


Re: Perfectly Informed
And that's stupid and undesireable.

Why?

Casting random blind-chance votes in a language you cannot read does nothing to help democracy, free or otherwise. It totally pointless and would only inhibit any efforts towards progress for the country.

Nobody wants a free democracy.

I do.

I doubt it... I believe that you think you do, but what you want isn't really a free democracy and what really is a free democracy isn't what you want.

Unless you want to define what you're talking about as a "free democracy"?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Jon, posted 01-12-2012 3:32 PM Jon has not yet responded

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 1315 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 152 of 236 (648014)
01-12-2012 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by Jon
01-12-2012 3:39 PM


Re: Perfectly Informed
I agree. And that's what this is for.

How does elementary school inform anyone about the specific resolutions and candidates on a ballot, especially since voters are, usually, no longer in primary school any more?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Jon, posted 01-12-2012 3:39 PM Jon has not yet responded

    
Perdition
Member (Idle past 1315 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 153 of 236 (648016)
01-12-2012 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by Jon
01-12-2012 3:39 PM


Re: Perfectly Informed
The 'goals of the writers of the constitution' are 100% irrelevant

While I agree that we can, and should, adapt our country as times change. The fact remains that we are left with the foundation they laid down. And it just indicates that this "free democracy" you speak of has never existed, and like true Communism may never be feasible in the real world.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Jon, posted 01-12-2012 3:39 PM Jon has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 154 of 236 (648019)
01-12-2012 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by Jon
01-12-2012 12:42 AM


Re: Jos the Well-Informed Voter
This is simply because people don't understand what the EPA really does.

I disagree. Some people make those choices despite knowing exactly what the EPA does because they calculate cost/benefit differently they you do. Pro football players continue to play football knowing that doing so shortens their life span. Smokers smoke despite the fact that whatever benefit they attain from so doing comes at a terrible cost. Some people don't care one whit if all the polar bears drown .

It is a mistake to believe that a little more information will change Republican voters into Democrats or Democrats into Libertarians. And that's besides your correct point about voting rights.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. The proper place to-day, the only place which Massachusetts has provided for her freer and less desponding spirits, is in her prisons, to be put out and locked out of the State by her own act, as they have already put themselves out by their principles. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Jon, posted 01-12-2012 12:42 AM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by Jon, posted 01-12-2012 4:54 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 155 of 236 (648021)
01-12-2012 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by Perdition
01-12-2012 12:54 PM


Re: Jos the Well-Informed Voter
I would say, after whatever current deadline exists for receiving enough signatures, to ensure that the people are actually going to be on the ballot.

In other words, well before the general election. I see some pretty significant problems with that, but perhaps we could fix it by making it a late requirement.

Not necessarily. I would assume the candidates would have a well-thought out plan for the major issues facing the country

The plan that might evolve over time, and candidates don't necessarily have the answer to everything that might come up during the election.

but then we could call bullshit on his ads claiming that he only did what he said he was going to do.

Sounds awful hollow to me. It's not like you can impeach the dude for failing to keep his promises.

So you prefer to go in with less information than you could have to vote? Sample ballots would be useful, at least I would see if there were any tricky worded questions or people I had no knowledge of.

I take the responsibility to inform myself. Do you know what a sample ballot is? In case you don't, a sample ballot is a mock ballot filled out by a partisan showing you how to vote for his favored candidates. They are handed out as close to the polling place door as the law allows. I don't need that crap.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. The proper place to-day, the only place which Massachusetts has provided for her freer and less desponding spirits, is in her prisons, to be put out and locked out of the State by her own act, as they have already put themselves out by their principles. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Perdition, posted 01-12-2012 12:54 PM Perdition has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by Perdition, posted 01-12-2012 5:05 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 156 of 236 (648022)
01-12-2012 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by NoNukes
01-12-2012 4:21 PM


Re: Jos the Well-Informed Voter
Yes; it is up to each person to vote according to the information they have and consider important.

And I cannot imagine a voting test being anything other than another piece of political propaganda and fascist control.

Jon


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by NoNukes, posted 01-12-2012 4:21 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 1315 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 157 of 236 (648023)
01-12-2012 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by NoNukes
01-12-2012 4:30 PM


Re: Jos the Well-Informed Voter
In other words, well before the general election. I see some pretty significant problems with that, but perhaps we could fix it by making it a late requirement.

Maybe it even gets sent out a week before the ballots are printed, and must be returned by the day before.

The plan that might evolve over time, and candidates don't necessarily have the answer to everything that might come up during the election.

True, but the major issues of the day are usually pretty stable over the election, or even multiple elections. If the candidate doesn't have anything to say on those issues, he may indicate that on the quesitonaire, but it would seem a bit problematic.

Sounds awful hollow to me. It's not like you can impeach the dude for failing to keep his promises.

No, but he can be recalled. But I'm not even an advocate of that. It would just be something that could be hauled out during the next election.

"According to your questionaire, you said your plan was to lower taxes for those making under $200,000/year. Yet you voted against that bill, why?"

I'm assuming the media or the opposing candidate would use it to great advantage and make the incumbent explain their inconsistencies.

I take the responsibility to inform myself.

And if everyone did, this would be anon-issue.

Do you know what a sample ballot is? In case you don't, a sample ballot is a mock ballot filled out by a partisan showing you how to vote for his favored candidates. They are handed out as close to the polling place door as the law allows. I don't need that crap.

I agree that this is crap. I assumed it was a copy of the ballot, but an unofficial one, so that you could preview what was on the ballot. I would support those.

I don't advocate trying to influence your vote in a partisan manner. I don't care how someone votes, I just want them to be aware of what they're voting for or against.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by NoNukes, posted 01-12-2012 4:30 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by Jon, posted 01-12-2012 5:27 PM Perdition has responded

    
Jon
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 158 of 236 (648025)
01-12-2012 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by Perdition
01-12-2012 5:05 PM


Re: Jos the Well-Informed Voter
but the major issues of the day are usually pretty stable over the election

Pretty stable for you. Your major issues aren't everyone else's major issues.

Jos, for example, doesn't care about the new school that Joe Dickhead wants built, or the raised taxes he plans for the super wealthy, or the government-run health insurance program he'd like to start. He just cares about that damn landfill that Mr. Dickhead has proposed to put behind Jos's house, and he is willing to vote in any other baby-killing, war-starting, pension-ending S.O.B. who doesn't support the landfill behind his house.

Jon


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by Perdition, posted 01-12-2012 5:05 PM Perdition has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by Perdition, posted 01-12-2012 5:37 PM Jon has responded

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 1315 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 159 of 236 (648027)
01-12-2012 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by Jon
01-12-2012 5:27 PM


Re: Jos the Well-Informed Voter
Pretty stable for you. Your major issues aren't everyone else's major issues.

By major issues, I mean exactly what I've been saying: The top 3-5 issues as revealed in polls. True, there may be some people out there for whom those issues are at the bottom, but we couldn't contain every issue anyone anywhere has, so statistically, at least one of the top 5 are probably in your top 5.

And if it isn't, you're not really any worse off than you are now, except you've had to take the extra 10 minutes or so and elarn about some of the issues you may not have considered much (or not learned anything and just copied the answers to get to the vote.)

Jos, for example, doesn't care about the new school that Joe Dickhead wants built, or the raised taxes he plans for the super wealthy, or the government-run health insurance program he'd like to start. He just cares about that damn landfill that Mr. Dickhead has proposed to put behind Jos's house, and he is willing to vote in any other baby-killing, war-starting, pension-ending S.O.B. who doesn't support the landfill behind his house.

And Jose still has that right. But he's also now a bit more informed (or not) about some of the other issues likely to come up during this session.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by Jon, posted 01-12-2012 5:27 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by Jon, posted 01-12-2012 6:28 PM Perdition has responded

    
frako
Member
Posts: 2813
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 160 of 236 (648030)
01-12-2012 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by Perdition
01-12-2012 3:04 PM


Re: Perfectly Informed
They don't do that around here. I think it would be a good first step, cuz it would at least help people like you, who are willing to read through it.

Well it does increase the cost of the referendum quite a bit, and even though its pointless to send to most, i still wouldn't do away with it. It at least gives me the hope people know what they are voting on.


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by Perdition, posted 01-12-2012 6:04 PM frako has responded

    
Perdition
Member (Idle past 1315 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 161 of 236 (648031)
01-12-2012 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by frako
01-12-2012 5:56 PM


Re: Perfectly Informed
Well it does increase the cost of the referendum quite a bit, and even though its pointless to send to most, i still wouldn't do away with it. It at least gives me the hope people know what they are voting on.

Perhaps, in the technological age we live in, they could have a list where people can elect to receive the resolution via e-mail rather than snail mail. People would still receive it and do as they wish, but it should reduce the costs inherent with sending out mail.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by frako, posted 01-12-2012 5:56 PM frako has responded

Replies to this message:
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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 162 of 236 (648033)
01-12-2012 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by Perdition
01-12-2012 5:37 PM


Re: Jos the Well-Informed Voter
True, there may be some people out there for whom those issues are at the bottom, but we couldn't contain every issue anyone anywhere has, so statistically, at least one of the top 5 are probably in your top 5.

The alternative to this limitation is to get rid of your stupid test altogether.

Why is that option so displeasing to you?

And Jose still has that right. But he's also now a bit more informed (or not) about some of the other issues likely to come up during this session.

How is your proposed test anything other than political propaganda?

Jon


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by Perdition, posted 01-12-2012 5:37 PM Perdition has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by Perdition, posted 01-12-2012 6:38 PM Jon has responded

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 1315 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 163 of 236 (648036)
01-12-2012 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by Jon
01-12-2012 6:28 PM


Re: Jos the Well-Informed Voter
The alternative to this limitation is to get rid of your stupid test altogether.

Why is that option so displeasing to you?

Because it leaves everything as is...and as is is broken. Something needs to change. This is my proposal...what's yours?

How is your proposed test anything other than political propaganda?

If a politician answering questions about his stances on the issues that matter the most to most people is propaganda, then I guess it is. But then everything even remotely connected to politics would be propaganda, making it a very watered-down word and no longer necessarily a bad thing.

The difference I see is that it doesn't try and tell you what to think, it merely gives you the data at hand and lets you make your own decisions about it.

You seem very passionate about how terrible this idea is. I'm not sure why it's gotten your dander up so much. It might make voting take a little longer, but it would do nothing to stop people from voting based on stupid reasons, based on personal reasons, or based on any reason whatsoever, it merely gives each voter more information which he or she can use to help decide which way to vote. If a person wants to ignore it, then they can.

I think my proposal is less of an impediment to voting than the new law in WI that requires a state-issued ID card. If you can't make it down to the DMV, I guess you're not good enough to vote. But if you don't know squat about anything on the ballot, your vote is welcomed with open arms.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Jon, posted 01-12-2012 6:28 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by Jon, posted 01-12-2012 7:36 PM Perdition has responded

    
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2306 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 164 of 236 (648038)
01-12-2012 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by New Cat's Eye
01-12-2012 3:36 PM


Re: Perfectly Informed
who knows?

I guess he doesn't realize that the citizens of Washington DC (600,000+) are not represented in his so called "free democracy".

they have the funniest license plate motto:

here's more than a half a million people who are refused the "rights" that "everyone" has by simple fact of geographic location.

there are more people in DC than the entire State of Wyoming, yet Wyoming gets 2 senators, and a congressman.

how Un-American

Edited by Artemis Entreri, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-12-2012 3:36 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
frako
Member
Posts: 2813
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 165 of 236 (648039)
01-12-2012 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by Perdition
01-12-2012 6:04 PM


Re: Perfectly Informed
Perhaps, in the technological age we live in, they could have a list where people can elect to receive the resolution via e-mail rather than snail mail. People would still receive it and do as they wish, but it should reduce the costs inherent with sending out mail.

Yea but then when something the politicians dont want on a referendum wont get the excuse that plagues so many voters referendums cost so much you just listen to your politicians they have your best interest at hart dong go collecting signatures to get this law on a referendum. lol

In reality if we had 1 politician that was wroth a damm just about everything would be on-line now. But we dont so untill someone looses it and whacks a few off will still have the same old power games played by them and no one will look at what is actually good for the country. We had early elections a while back and 2 parites that hate each other got 28% and 26% of the votes, and none of them can build a coalition to get 46 votes out of 90 to get us a president of rulership so we can get things moving. The guy who leads the party with 28% of the votes is my candidate he is a crook but at least he does something for the money steals. The guy who leads the party with 26% of the votes is an embarrassment for our country implicated in 2 major corrupt arms deals on trial for the past 4 years and yes the leader of the party that got 26% of the votes. The other parties got 10% of the votes or less they need more then 2,5% to get a seat, are having truble going in to a coalition because they dont get it that the party that got more votes has more say in the coalition a party that got 10% of the votes wants as many chairs in the ministry as the party that got 28% of the votes. Basicaly they are corrupt kids who cant decide who gets what portion of the candy.

The whole system of government could be done on-line but what would we do whit the hopeless useless bastards that cant do one thing right if their life depended on it you know the ones we call politicians.

p.s.

Yea im a bit pissed at the moment cause of all the shit i mentioned above so im ranting a bit.


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

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