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Author Topic:   Modern Civics
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 181 of 236 (648156)
01-13-2012 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by Jon
01-13-2012 11:27 AM


Re: Perfectly Informed
Huh? What is this a reply to? And how can all make a decision when only most have access to the tool necessary for making that decision?

It's a reply to your stated position that the number of issues that percolated down to the people for direct decision should be reduced.

Given that your comment necessarily refers to decisions that are already being made by the people, it seems silly to complain about a lack of tools for doing that more efficiently.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. The proper place to-day, the only place which Massachusetts has provided for her freer and less desponding spirits, is in her prisons, to be put out and locked out of the State by her own act, as they have already put themselves out by their principles. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Jon, posted 01-13-2012 11:27 AM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by Jon, posted 01-13-2012 2:49 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 182 of 236 (648163)
01-13-2012 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by Perdition
01-13-2012 12:42 PM


Dat's Perdi' Fascist of You...
Your solution for making sure voters are aware of what the resolution they're voting on this year means, is to send all of them back to elementary school? Strange idea.

Stop being ridiculous. You know that is not the point I am making.

Fascist.

I believe that's what I'm trying to do.

No; you're trying to shove someone else's political ideologies down my throat as I attempt to exercise my constitutional right to vote, and you're using the resources and the power of the government to do so, because you are too godamned lazy to get off your fucking ass and use your own time and resources to send out the information yourself.

Fucking fascist.

Are you on the ballot? If so, sure, as long as your opponent has the same ability. If you're not, no, because it matters not a whit.

It doesn't matter. When I get to the polling place, I shouldn't be forced to listen to anyone's political ideology before being allowed to vote, including (and especially) the ideologies of those candidates that I have not come to the polls to vote for.

Damn fascist.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Perdition, posted 01-13-2012 12:42 PM Perdition has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by Perdition, posted 01-13-2012 3:01 PM Jon has responded
 Message 185 by NoNukes, posted 01-13-2012 3:09 PM Jon has not yet responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 183 of 236 (648164)
01-13-2012 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by NoNukes
01-13-2012 12:55 PM


Re: Perfectly Informed
It's a reply to your stated position that the number of issues that percolated down to the people for direct decision should be reduced.

Given that your comment necessarily refers to decisions that are already being made by the people, it seems silly to complain about a lack of tools for doing that more efficiently.

That's not how I read it at all. Hopefully Phat will return to clear it up.

'Cause it really just sounded like he was whining about this or that...

Jon


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by NoNukes, posted 01-13-2012 12:55 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-14-2012 6:47 AM Jon has acknowledged this reply

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 1411 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 184 of 236 (648167)
01-13-2012 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by Jon
01-13-2012 2:47 PM


Re: Dat's Perdi' Fascist of You...
Stop being ridiculous. You know that is not the point I am making.

But the point you are making has no bearing on what I'm proposing. People can be as well taught as possible, and still not understand the wording on a ballot.

People can be as well taught as possible, and still not be able to hear a candidate's proposals to take care of the deficit, or engage in war, or whatever else is important to the populace that election cycle.

Fascist.

Wow, hyperbole? I'm more libertarian than fascist, but my Libertarian streak has a caveat. "People should be free to do as they please unless what they want to do hurts others" Voting blindly hurts people. I'd really rather someone who doesn't know what he/she is voting for or against just stay home, but I can't force them to.

No; you're trying to shove someone else's political ideologies down my throat as I attempt to exercise my constitutional right to vote, and you're using the resources and the power of the government to do so, because you are too godamned lazy to get off your fucking ass and use your own time and resources to send out the information yourself.

The only political ideologies being "shoved down your throat" are those of the people on the ballot. Voting, in essence, is shoving someone's political ideologies down someone else's throat, so don't give me that.

Even if I had the resources and time to send out a quesitonaire to every poltical candidate, there is no reason for them to fill it out. Even if all of them did, I could never send the answers to everyone. It's not laziness, it's practicality.

Fucking fascist.

Ooh, sexual hyperbole.

It doesn't matter. When I get to the polling place, I shouldn't be forced to listen to anyone's political ideology before being allowed to vote, including (and especially) the ideologies of those candidates that I have not come to the polls to vote for.

And it's very easy to ignore what the other people are doing. If you want to make uninformed decisions, go right ahead, but please excuse me if I think your choice should count less compared to somone who took the time to know the positions of the person they're voting for.

Damn fascist.

Damn ignorantist.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Jon, posted 01-13-2012 2:47 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by Jon, posted 01-13-2012 6:14 PM Perdition has responded

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 185 of 236 (648170)
01-13-2012 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by Jon
01-13-2012 2:47 PM


Re: Dat's Perdi' Fascist of You...
Fascist.

I suppose that I am the one who introduced "jack boots" into the conversation, but in my defense, I think it was clear from the context that I was joking.

I think the accusation of fascism is beyond the pale, and entirely inappropriate. I believe that the current proposal for informing voters is wrong, but it is no more fascist than is a driver's license road test.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. The proper place to-day, the only place which Massachusetts has provided for her freer and less desponding spirits, is in her prisons, to be put out and locked out of the State by her own act, as they have already put themselves out by their principles. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Jon, posted 01-13-2012 2:47 PM Jon has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 186 of 236 (648171)
01-13-2012 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by caffeine
01-13-2012 4:13 AM


Re: Perfectly Informed
Well, that's demonstrably untrue. What about Jon?

He's doing what Jon does: Make an obscure, seemingly controversial, assertion and then back away from any challange with 'that's not what I'm talking about'.

There's no such thing as a free democracy and nobody would want one anyways.

And even if they did, there'd still be limits on who is allowed to vote.

Unless you're talking about the trivial cases of children and foreigners this is also not true.

Yeah, and felons, and people who are mentally/physically unable to vote.

So if its "everyone"... except for these and these and these and these, then its not really everyone.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by caffeine, posted 01-13-2012 4:13 AM caffeine has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by Jon, posted 01-13-2012 6:04 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded
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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 187 of 236 (648188)
01-13-2012 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by New Cat's Eye
01-13-2012 3:11 PM


Re: Perfectly Informed
Yeah, and felons, and people who are mentally/physically unable to vote.

So if its "everyone"... except for these and these and these and these, then its not really everyone.

And, of course, I've never said that these restrictions are okay. It's absolutely ridiculous that felons can be denied their constitutional rights. The Constitution should be above the law, not the law above the Constitution.

And I've already mentioned my support for including the mentally and physically handicapped (even severely so) in the voting process.

Jon


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-13-2012 3:11 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 188 of 236 (648190)
01-13-2012 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by Perdition
01-13-2012 3:01 PM


Re: Dat's Perdi' Fascist of You...
If you want to make uninformed decisions, go right ahead, but please excuse me if I think your choice should count less compared to somone who took the time to know the positions of the person they're voting for.

And now we've stepped beyond simply interfering with others' exercise of their constitutional rights and into the realm of deciding that people's votes should be weighted differently based on whether or not they agree with li'l Perdi'.

Fascist

People can be as well taught as possible, and still not be able to hear a candidate's proposals to take care of the deficit, or engage in war, or whatever else is important to the populace that election cycle.

Who the FUCK cares what is important to the populace!? Voting isn't about the populace; it's about the individual, and only what is important to the individual should matter when the individual goes to exercise his/her/its rights.

Wrotten fascist.

I'd really rather someone who doesn't know what he/she is voting for or against just stay home

And here I thought you were being a fascist when all you were really doing was being a...

Sneaky fascist.

Even if I had the resources and time to send out a quesitonaire to every poltical candidate, there is no reason for them to fill it out. Even if all of them did, I could never send the answers to everyone. It's not laziness, it's practicality.

Wah wah... being a dutiful citizen is so much work... boo hoo.

Lazy fascist.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by Perdition, posted 01-13-2012 3:01 PM Perdition has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by Butterflytyrant, posted 01-13-2012 8:57 PM Jon has responded
 Message 231 by Perdition, posted 01-16-2012 6:13 PM Jon has not yet responded

  
Butterflytyrant
Member (Idle past 2595 days)
Posts: 415
From: Australia
Joined: 06-28-2011


Message 189 of 236 (648201)
01-13-2012 8:57 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by Jon
01-13-2012 6:14 PM


Re: Dat's Perdi' Fascist of You...
Hello,

Sorry to butt in. I have been lurking but would like to post again...

And now we've stepped beyond simply interfering with others' exercise of their constitutional rights and into the realm of deciding that people's votes should be weighted differently based on whether or not they agree with li'l Perdi'.

Peoples votes should be weighted by their knowledge and understanding of the issue being voted on. This makes sense. Look at human civilisation like a big business. The people who know about accounting make the accounting decisions. The people who know about the law make the legal decisions. If you dont know something, you have a research and development group who find out.

In my work we rarely ask the cleaners to make finance decisions. It would not make sense for all of the departments to vote on subjects that only one group know anything about.

Who the FUCK cares what is important to the populace!? Voting isn't about the populace; it's about the individual, and only what is important to the individual should matter when the individual goes to exercise his/her/its rights.

This is the problem with the human species. Individual rights over the species. Fools, fanatics, fundamentalists, people who do not know or understand the topic and people who make a random selection are more important than the species and the planet.

Why the fuck cares what is important to the populace? Everyone should care. Have you ever heard of the tragedy of the commons? Our species and our planet are in great danger of being destroyed because of this philosophy that an individual is of greater importance than the whole.

What exactly is it about you that you think makes you so important that your views are more important than the species?

Wah wah... being a dutiful citizen is so much work... boo hoo.

For a huge amount of people, being a dutiful citizen is too much work. For example, 1 in 32 Americans is either in prison, or on parole. (Source:http://usgovinfo.about.com/cs/censusstatistic/a/aainjail.htm) That is a lot of people who find it too difficult to be a dutiful citizen. Since tghe end of WW2 the amount of people hwo have turned up to vote has barely surpassed 60%. (Source: http://elections.gmu.edu/voter_turnout.htm). That means that 40% or more find it too difficult to be a dutiful citizen.

People are lazy and stupid.

And I dont have a problem with some elements of fascism, particularly exalting the nation over the individual. I would expand it further than that and say the planet or species over the individual.

Feel free to call me a fascist although the label is not accurate.


I could agree with you, but then we would both be wrong

Butterfly, AKA, mallethead - Dawn Bertot

"Superstitions and nonsense from the past should not prevent us from making progress. If we hold ourselves back, we admit that our fears are more powerful than our abilities." Hunters of Dune Herbert & Anderson

2011 leading candidate for the EvC Forum Don Quixote award


This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Jon, posted 01-13-2012 6:14 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by Jon, posted 01-13-2012 11:12 PM Butterflytyrant has acknowledged this reply
 Message 191 by Coyote, posted 01-13-2012 11:33 PM Butterflytyrant has responded
 Message 192 by ProtoTypical, posted 01-14-2012 12:40 AM Butterflytyrant has responded
 Message 194 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-14-2012 7:33 AM Butterflytyrant has responded

    
Jon
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 190 of 236 (648210)
01-13-2012 11:12 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by Butterflytyrant
01-13-2012 8:57 PM


Re: Dat's Perdi' Fascist of You...
Feel free to call me a fascist ...

Fascist.

Edited by Jon, : No reason given.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by Butterflytyrant, posted 01-13-2012 8:57 PM Butterflytyrant has acknowledged this reply

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 279 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 191 of 236 (648211)
01-13-2012 11:33 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by Butterflytyrant
01-13-2012 8:57 PM


Re: Dat's Perdi' Fascist of You...
And I dont have a problem with some elements of fascism, particularly exalting the nation over the individual. I would expand it further than that and say the planet or species over the individual.

I take the opposite view. I hold that the individual is the sole arbiter of human affairs.

I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do. I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.

Robert A. Heinlein


This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by Butterflytyrant, posted 01-13-2012 8:57 PM Butterflytyrant has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by Butterflytyrant, posted 01-15-2012 5:12 PM Coyote has responded

  
ProtoTypical
Member
Posts: 1792
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010
Member Rating: 5.8


(2)
Message 192 of 236 (648214)
01-14-2012 12:40 AM
Reply to: Message 189 by Butterflytyrant
01-13-2012 8:57 PM


Re: Dat's Perdi' Fascist of You...
Peoples votes should be weighted by their knowledge and understanding of the issue being voted on.

That is called a technocracy. In a democracy you take all comers.

This is a curse because we are saddled with the ambient level of stupidity that everyone rails about everyone else having but do not suffer from themselves. This is a blessing because the stupidity that everyone actually does have is not all in the same place. This has proven to be a great strength of democracy.

And I dont have a problem with some elements of fascism, particularly exalting the nation over the individual. I would expand it further than that and say the planet or species over the individual.
Feel free to call me a fascist although the label is not accurate.

Nations are only important because the individuals are important. The species is only important because the individuals are important. Placing the nation above the individual is the essence of fascism.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by Butterflytyrant, posted 01-13-2012 8:57 PM Butterflytyrant has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by Butterflytyrant, posted 01-15-2012 7:22 PM ProtoTypical has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12445
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 193 of 236 (648258)
01-14-2012 6:47 AM
Reply to: Message 183 by Jon
01-13-2012 2:49 PM


Teach the children well
Jon writes:

That's not how I read it at all. Hopefully Phat will return to clear it up.

'Cause it really just sounded like he was whining about this or that...

Granted I WAS whining about the appalling lack of societal responsibily and ability to govern ourselves rather than hiring people to do it for us and paying them to argue with each other all year.

We need to teach the the basics about how a civilisation should function.

Perdition writes:

"People should be free to do as they please unless what they want to do hurts others" Voting blindly hurts people. I'd really rather someone who doesn't know what he/she is voting for or against just stay home, but I can't force them to.

And yet the wealthy people can lobby for their causes! If we give the poor and uneducated the power to vote for their interests exclusively, the middle class again shrinks...more of us become poor...and the game is lost. As everyone might expect, I am again whining about the deck that is increasingly stacked against my success.

quote:
A report released on Wednesday by the Pew Research Center found that about two-thirds of Americans now perceive a strong conflict between the rich and poor in this country. That was up 19 percentage points from 2009.

Civics is needed so that we can understand our social contract with each other. Times are becoming too divisive, and class warfare is on the rise. mitt Romney calls it the politics of envy, but its not about envy. Its about basic fairness.

Elizabeth Warren writes:

There is nobody in this country who got rich on his own. Nobody. You built a factory out there, good for you. But, I want to be clear: you moved your goods to market on the roads the rest of us paid for. You hired workers the rest of us paid to educate. You were safe in your factory because of police forces and fire forces that the rest of us paid for. You didnt have to worry that marauding bands would come and seize everything at your factory and hire someone to protect against this because of the work the rest of us did. Now look, you built a factory and it turned into something terrific or a great idea. God bless. Keep a big hunk of it. But part of the underlying social contract is you take a hunk of that and pay forward for the next kid who comes along.

The way I see it, the poor need to be educated enough to see the Big Picture. They need to unite with the shrinking middle class rather than try and drag us down to their level.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Jon, posted 01-13-2012 2:49 PM Jon has acknowledged this reply

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16097
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 194 of 236 (648269)
01-14-2012 7:33 AM
Reply to: Message 189 by Butterflytyrant
01-13-2012 8:57 PM


Re: Dat's Perdi' Fascist of You...
Peoples votes should be weighted by their knowledge and understanding of the issue being voted on. This makes sense. Look at human civilisation like a big business. The people who know about accounting make the accounting decisions. The people who know about the law make the legal decisions. If you dont know something, you have a research and development group who find out.

In my work we rarely ask the cleaners to make finance decisions. It would not make sense for all of the departments to vote on subjects that only one group know anything about.

But the problem here is that people have different interests. I, for example, am exceptionally smart, and it is in my interest that everyone else on this forum should tangibly acknowledge this fact by becoming my slaves. But you're not going to, because you in fact believe that your interests are as valid as mine even though you can never hope to aspire to my god-like intellect.

And this is I think a permanent argument against any form of meritocracy. The people who possess merit also possess self-interest. And it is in their self-interest that their merit should be rewarded over and above what it would legitimately earn.

You cite business organizations, and these are a case in point. The people who get the highest pay, the managers, the paper-pushers, get the big bucks in a way that seems swollen out of all proportion to the benefits they confer on the company. Is it just a coincidence that they are also the people whose job it is to set employees' pay scales? If you put any group of people in charge of anything, are they going to fairly assess their own interests?

And I dont have a problem with some elements of fascism, particularly exalting the nation over the individual.

But what is the nation for?

This is where ideologues lose their way. What is the nation for? What is capitalism for? What is communism for? What is democracy for? Did God mention them on the stone tablets he gave Moses?

Surely the only excuse for any social institution is that at least on average it leaves the individuals happier than they would be if it didn't exist. How else, in the end, are we to judge the worth of the institution? If, for example, we can make "the nation" strong and prosperous and free, and yet most of the people in it are abject penurious slaves, then fuck "the nation". The value of the abstraction lies only in the good that it can do for individuals --- where else could it lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by Butterflytyrant, posted 01-13-2012 8:57 PM Butterflytyrant has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by Butterflytyrant, posted 01-15-2012 7:33 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Butterflytyrant
Member (Idle past 2595 days)
Posts: 415
From: Australia
Joined: 06-28-2011


Message 195 of 236 (648425)
01-15-2012 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by Coyote
01-13-2012 11:33 PM


Re: Dat's Perdi' Fascist of You...
Hey Coyote,

I take the opposite view. I hold that the individual is the sole arbiter of human affairs.

I do agree with this in some areas but not others. I am en environmental scientist so I regularly speak to people or witness problems created by this idea. Indidviduals who believe that their accumulation of wealth is more important than the environment of the planet and/or the well being of all of the future generations.

I have 2 children. I love kids. I would like to have more kids. I would have a whole bus full of them if I could.

But I wont. I will not do this because overpopulation is a problem and no couple should have more than 2 children.

So I have put my planet and my species above my own individual wants and needs.

The current economic problems in the USA can be attibuted (at least partially) to this as well. Who allowed this to happen and why? A small amount of people have turned a huge profit to the disadvantage of an entire nation and the world.

If the big bank and government decision makers were putting the American people ahead of their own desires for great wealth, would the USA be in the situation it is currently in?

Look at problems like illegal hunting and overfishing. Individuals putting their desires over the rights of all.

Illegal dumping of rubbish (toxic, radioactive etc). Individuals putting their desires over the rights of all.

The tragedy of the commons - The tragedy of the commons is a dilemma arising from the situation in which multiple individuals, acting independently and rationally consulting their own self-interest, will ultimately deplete a shared limited resource, even when it is clear that it is not in anyone's long-term interest for this to happen.
(source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons).

I dont think any individuals rights are equal to the rights of every other individuals rights combined.

My understanding of the US economic situation is very small so if I am totally of base let me know and I will edit/delete that section of the post.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by Coyote, posted 01-13-2012 11:33 PM Coyote has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by Coyote, posted 01-15-2012 5:23 PM Butterflytyrant has responded
 Message 206 by Jon, posted 01-15-2012 8:57 PM Butterflytyrant has responded

    
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