Consciousness outside of the brain

Exactly.If you have ever been out drinking and had more then is probably wise, then you are quite likely to know that your experience and perception of the flow of time and events can become distorted and un-reliable. Like wise when you are chronically ill with flu or worse you can loose track of where and when things happen.With NDEs there is no clear cut evidence that any of these memories come from the point where the brain is shut down. As has been said ‘clinically dead’ doesn’t necessarily mean no brain activity what so ever. There could be far, far lower than normal activity; enough for the doctors to use the label ‘clinically dead’ as it’s clear they can’t continue to function at that level, off the machines.So as there is quite strong doubt that these experiences occur in periods of zero brain activity, and are thought to occur in a very low state of brain activity or in the activity between periods of zero activity, then there is nothing concrete to tie claims of the consciousness existing separate from the brain to.I apologise for the use of the word ‘silly’, that was wrong of me.Our brains are fantastically complicated things and thanks to the highly complex wiring inside, our minds, personality and consciousness are all emergent properties of this wonderful organ. We, currently have nowhere near a complete understanding of the totality of its workings. To assume otherwise would be folly. Like wise to assume that consciousness exists as something separate from mind & body, on the evidence we have is also tantamount to folly, as any claimed evidence is anecdotal at best.Yes people have varying experiences but as your linked article said: This does fit the generally accepted notion of an NDE, does it not? Particulars may be different here and there but the general theme does tend to be similar.I don’t blame people for wanting to believe in what NDE reports seem to show as it does seem a natural urge for the human animal to seek conformation of some kind of continuation after this mortal existence. But as far as I can see the evidence is not there.Now is you could do an experiment where you could verify some one had absolutely zero brain activity (brain death) and during this time read them a unique passage of text. Then if they recover and subsequently recall this bit of text THEN a case might well be made. But only if there is not the slightest trickle of activity in the patient’s brain.This message has been edited by ohnhai, 21 February 2005 11:44 AM

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How many people actually have life-altering experiences though [besides quitting the drug] from ketamine and LSD? Typically, if they envision similar happenings as the NDE experiencer, after the drug has wore off, they realize what happened, and it does not haunt them for life [save for a chemical imbalance]. Some people find it so real that they completely reform their religious beliefs; from Atheist to whatever denomination. Some are so entranced by their experience, they want to commit suicide to "return to the light." I do not believe LSD or Ketamine have these effects, besides, again, as a result of a chemical imbalance.

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I dunno, Ketamine is pretty rough stuff, check this out from the Good Drugs Guide:At low doses, K is a mild if weird stimulant. At medium to high doses, it becomes a very powerful paralysing psychedelic. It effects are like a combination of cocaine, cannabis, opium, Nitrous Oxide, and alcohol.When Ketamine separates or dissociates the mind from the body, the brain is freed from the usual business of reacting to sensations from the body. Perception increases to fill the gap vacated by the senses and gives rise to Ketamine's more mind-expanding effects.onset
The K effect is very rapid. In 10-20 minutes you may find yourself hardly able to move and, at higher doses, even approaching out-of-body and near-death experiences.peak
At the height of the experience, you may experience dazzling insights, hallucinate and even feel yourself communicating with forces, entities and elements you were never conscious of before.Users often fall into a deep trance state. Their eyes may move sightlessly from side and side, and their bodies may assume bizarre postures.Try to tell someone about it and you're likely to mumble monosyllabic and nonsensical inanities.Some people find it a life-changing and even spiritual experience. Others find it a lonely and unemotional experience. Whatever you make of it - it's intense.comedown
A Ketamine trip usually only lasts between 45 and 90 minutes, regardless of dosage. The experience can be much shorter if you have high tolerance.The effects wear off very rapidlyafter effects
If you've ever had an operation under anaesthetic, you'll recognise that lousy post-operative feeling after a strong Ketamine trip. There are few other after-effects other than this general drowsiness.You might feel wiped out, a bit achy, and not ready for anything too loud or too complicated. Sometimes you may feel rather disorientated or even a bit shell-shocked, as Ketamine is a very extreme experience at higher doses. Many people feel energized after a Ketamine experience and have a strong urge to move around, dance or stretch.Long term, some users can be so overcome by what they regard as the superior reality of Ketamine-land that they can retreat from the real world into the K-world. We're not kidding.
See Tales From The K-Hole.setting
At high doses, because its effect is essentially an internal and introspective experience, external stimuli like loud music or TV are not particularly satisfying, nor conducive to a good trip.This is not the case at low level doses, when it acts more like a stimulant.in the brain
Ketamine's effects on the brain are well documented. It mainly binds to and blocks glutamate receptors (also as N-P receptors) all over the brain. Glutamate is an excitatory neurotransmitter. It turns on cell activity and is part of the computer-like on / off mechanism that underlies brain activity.Ketamine blocks glutamate activity, giving rise to either entire cell bank shutdown in some brain areas or changes in the way cell clusters integrate or interpret incoming data in others. Overall, the result is the much famed K-Hole effect: certain brain parts go into temporary hibernation, mainly the senses and physical sensations, while others - imagination, and other unnamed perceptions from the depths of the mind - are amplified.---It seems pretty clear that NDE-like experiences can be induced chemically. This strongly supports the contention that such experiences as are reported are actually just subjective experiences of strange brain chemistry, rather than an actual mystical phenomenon.This message has been edited by contracycle, 02-22-2005 06:06 AM

So do the people who experience NDE's while clinically dead just have similar brain chemistry as those who use ketamine and have a ND-ish experience? How often does someone who uses ketamine have something similar to a NDE? Years ago, I knew numerous people who did Special K constantly, and excessively, and not one of them ever reported anything similar to a NDE.This message has been edited by RIP, 02-23-2005 02:07 AM

I think the points raised about the timing of the origins of these memories is an important one. Research has shown episodic memory (memory for events) to be highly reconstructive, and thus open to many influences (references available upon request). People are only able to report these incidents after they "awake" from their experience. Thus, the timing of things is certainly an issue that needs to be addressed.Another point is that, even if there is an immaterial soul that is separate from the brain, if the two work together, they need to stay "in sync." (if you want an explanation of why this is true, I can explain). Thus, in order to really propose an immaterial soul, you need some mechanism for this immaterial soul to "update" the brain with it's "out-of-brain" experiences. So, that mechanism needs to be explicated. Otherwise, the model (soul + brain are interacting in a causal way) falls apart.Thoughts?Ben
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Also if the soul (consciousness) is separate from the brain, and consciousness isn’t simply an emergent property of the biological workings of the brain, if the soul (consciousness) is the embodiment of us, our thoughts memories and personality then, being separate and all that, why does damage to the brain frequently cause drastic changes to personality, thoughts and memories in the victim?We are told that the soul/consciousness is the root of us it is what defines us, our thoughts our personality. How else are we to recognise each other in heaven? So our souls are what make us, us. We are also told that our soul is immortal and un-corruptible (being pure and god given.)If this is so how can brain trauma affect a person’s personality? How can stoving in a lump of grey matter alter an incorruptible, immortal and separate immaterial thing as a soul, as it must do if our personality is changed? Do not the chronic shifts in personality, due to trauma, indicate that it is more likely that personality, thoughts, memories and consciousness are emergent properties of the biological brain rather than residing in a non-tangible, incorporeal thing such as a soul?This message has been edited by ohnhai, 23 February 2005 11:53 AM

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All things being equal, It's time to tip the scales...Ohnhai
http://www.ohnhai.com
http://www.thewildmachines.com

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So do the people who experience NDE's while clinically dead just have similar brain chemistry as those who use ketamine and have a ND-ish experience? How often does someone who uses ketamine have something similar to a NDE? Years ago, I knew numerous people who did Special K constantly, and excessively, and not one of them ever reported anything similar to a NDE.

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Well your first question is hard to answer; I suggest instead it is more reasonable to approach it the other way. If ketamine has these effects reliably enough that it is consistently reported - even if consistently reported by only a minority - then we can use observation of the drugs effects to suggest the brain chemistry of the NDE. To me, the part that talks about banks of the brain shutting down is a likely candidate - that is, the NDE experience may only be a property of having parts of your brain switched off whole the reaminder is switched on - which might be precisely what happens during brain-death.Secondly, as mentioned above there seems to be a radical difference in effect depending on the dosage. I know ketamine is a party drug, although I've not taken it myself, and I can only presume that manufacture and distribution for this market specifically keep the dose so low it does not trigger catatonia - that would be no fun. I do know some people who took a ketamine variant they got out of a military field medical kit, and I don't think that dosage would have been set as high as catatonia either (it did not affect them that way).The main virture of the good drugs guide, and similar organs of their ilk, is that they are actually repositories of, umm, consumer testing. Its not academic deduction about what the effects should be, but reportage of what the effects are.