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Author Topic:   Is morality absolute or relative?
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 1 of 150 (320081)
06-10-2006 6:12 PM


Does moral relativism mean that to be truly free, we must be free from our cultural-religious bias? Must we be free from our 'conscience' so we can think outside of the box. Lets think about that carefully. I don't have a problem with questioning the reality we've been sold so to speak, but this has serious implications.
Skepticism is healthy but does this not border on insanity? Does our conscious originate with man, or is it transcendant and divine in origin?
Imagine the unlimited possibilities, unlimited by 'conscience', which is nothing more than that lingering sense that 'this isn't right'. Let's free ourselves from that bias. Just let it go and, "Imagine there's no heaven". Think of all the possibilities of human endeavor that we could experience the restrictions of conscious. That nagging little voice that bogs us down. No more conflict between your heart and head. No more bias. "No more hang-ups man!”
No more of those restrictions that have kept humanity from doing such great things as indiscriminately raping, torturing, and slowly murdering each other in manners that have yet to be explored and enjoyed, piece, by, piece. Just imagine the possibilities. They're limitless! Most have only flirted in their youth, with the real freedom that waits for all over the hill of true open-mindedness. (By the way, ask me to show you a person with an open mind, and I'll show you a person in a maximum security penitentiary enjoying solitary confinement! Hi Charlie manson...) Imagine the glory! That unseen potential we've never allowed ourselves to experience. What could be calling us? What have we been restricted from learning because of that dog-gone little voice?
"Have another hit man, and be free from that prison".
I know what's calling us, and these questions make it pretty clear in my mind. Pure adulterated Evil! Why this step by step approach, how about just taking this all to a point in its logical extension. How about participating in an open-minded concoction of Ecstasy and LSD while engaged in a necro-beastial orgy, on a judges bench, during court proceedings that will argue the irrelevance of the U.S. constitution, on the basis that it is discriminatory because of it's foundations in the teachings of Christ, and it's condemnation of the desires of the 'free spirit'. "Whoa man, now that’s freedom!"
Is that what freedom is? I contend that it is those ideas leads to more imprisonment by the consequences of lawless action. I further contend that real freedom has been lost long ago, and it is the real freedom from this 'sin manifested reality' we now live in. That freedom is 'real' and secured by obeying the divine and natural laws of our creator, be it physical or moral.
I would love any thoughts...

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Chiroptera, posted 06-10-2006 6:42 PM Rob has replied
 Message 10 by ringo, posted 06-10-2006 7:15 PM Rob has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 4 of 150 (320117)
06-10-2006 6:51 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Chiroptera
06-10-2006 6:42 PM


Moral relativism means that there is no absolute standard by which to judge moral and ethical decisions.
Is that your position? Or is that an objective truth? Do you believe that there is no absolute standard? And if so, how can you know?
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

Any biters in the stream?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Chiroptera, posted 06-10-2006 6:42 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by jar, posted 06-10-2006 6:54 PM Rob has replied
 Message 6 by Chiroptera, posted 06-10-2006 7:00 PM Rob has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 7 of 150 (320129)
06-10-2006 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by jar
06-10-2006 6:54 PM


I just think that if morality exists, then it must necessarily be absolute. Otherwise, we get the clash of relative truths...
If one say's it is incorrect for me to impose morality on him, is he saying that it is 'wrong' to do so? Then, by denying me the ability to do what I think is right, is he not imposing his morality on me? More interesting, is that in the absence of a creator, imposing one's 'own' morality is a perfectly reasonable thing to do, given he has the strength to enforce it.
After all, if there is no such thing as God, then there is no assumption of purpose. It's just survival of the fittest and the fittest takes all. I'm not suggesting that natural selection doesn't take place. I'm saying that in addition, morals either exist, or they don't. If they do, we don't create them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by jar, posted 06-10-2006 6:54 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by CK, posted 06-10-2006 7:08 PM Rob has replied
 Message 9 by Chiroptera, posted 06-10-2006 7:12 PM Rob has replied
 Message 12 by jar, posted 06-10-2006 7:16 PM Rob has not replied
 Message 19 by nwr, posted 06-10-2006 7:30 PM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 11 of 150 (320137)
06-10-2006 7:15 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by CK
06-10-2006 7:08 PM


1. You shall not worship any other god but YHWH.
2. You shall not make a graven image.
3. You shall not take the name of YHWH in vain.
4. You shall not break the Sabbath.
5. You shall not dishonor your parents.
6. You shall not murder.
7. You shall not commit adultery
8. You shall not steal.
9. You shall not commit perjury.
10. You shall not covet.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by CK, posted 06-10-2006 7:08 PM CK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by CK, posted 06-10-2006 7:19 PM Rob has replied
 Message 17 by Coragyps, posted 06-10-2006 7:28 PM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 13 of 150 (320139)
06-10-2006 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Chiroptera
06-10-2006 7:12 PM


I believe that it is wrong to interfere with a mother's right to terminate her pregnancy. There, that's proof that morality exists.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...then it must necessarily be absolute.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pat Robertson believes that it is wrong to allow a mother to terminate her pregnancy. There, that proves morality is relative.
Nope! It just means that both of you can't be reflecting what is the objective standard...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Chiroptera, posted 06-10-2006 7:12 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Chiroptera, posted 06-10-2006 7:28 PM Rob has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 16 of 150 (320150)
06-10-2006 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by CK
06-10-2006 7:19 PM


What if they sexually abuse and beat you from day one?
Well, if we want to impose our morality on them and say that it is wrong (and I assume most of us would). Irrespective as to whether we understand the iplicit sovereignty we claim in doing so, then in that case... We must forgive them in the ultimate sense.
I have personnally had to forgive in this arena at one time. All of us have been abused by all people at one time or another, because all of us are sinners.
It's ironic you know... We get ticked off at the world for wronging us, and then often use that as an excuse to say there is no morality and justify our personal failings. If there wasn't a violation... why did it tick us off so much???
Everyones waiting with bated breath... You got me on that one...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by CK, posted 06-10-2006 7:19 PM CK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by CK, posted 06-10-2006 7:32 PM Rob has replied
 Message 23 by Coragyps, posted 06-10-2006 7:35 PM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 18 of 150 (320153)
06-10-2006 7:30 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Coragyps
06-10-2006 7:28 PM


Does this suggest that we should stone to death all artists who draw people better than my pitiful stick figures?
Oh yes most definitely...
How bout another round.. 'tender!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Coragyps, posted 06-10-2006 7:28 PM Coragyps has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by CK, posted 06-10-2006 7:34 PM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 20 of 150 (320157)
06-10-2006 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by nwr
06-10-2006 7:30 PM


Show me a moral absolutist, and I will show you a moral relativist who absolutely wants to impose his relative morals on everybody else.
Your quite right roadkill... everytime you accuse Bush of warcrimes you do just that!
There are no crimes unless there are morals... if we're just making them up then tell us so and quit judging other people...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by nwr, posted 06-10-2006 7:30 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by nwr, posted 06-10-2006 10:19 PM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 24 of 150 (320167)
06-10-2006 7:37 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by CK
06-10-2006 7:32 PM


Why must we forgive them? You agree that the state should be able to remove a child from the home of such abusers and that their sovereignty is limited? right?
Of course, that's why I said ultimate sense. I mean forgiven in that I will not condemn them to hell, or wish it on them. I would prefer that they repent before facing that judgement. As for this world, they will pay the last penny...
And we love to hold ourselves up and play better than all of those who have been caught (in general, not that we all abuse children).
We love to play selfrighteous and point fingers. When all we need to do is look in the mirror!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by CK, posted 06-10-2006 7:32 PM CK has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 25 of 150 (320168)
06-10-2006 7:39 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by CK
06-10-2006 7:34 PM


Sorry, no of course not. Bad humor...

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Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Coragyps, posted 06-10-2006 7:47 PM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 26 of 150 (320169)
06-10-2006 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Coragyps
06-10-2006 7:35 PM


But there was a violation. Societies have standards
Really? So, if you are a moral relativist... are you saying that it was ok for the Jews to stone people because it was their way of living?
And do cannabals have the right to invade a neighboring island and eat their neighbors, even if the neighbors are disgusted by canabalism?
OR, are ther universal standards as part of the purpose of our existence?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Coragyps, posted 06-10-2006 7:35 PM Coragyps has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Chiroptera, posted 06-10-2006 7:47 PM Rob has not replied
 Message 29 by ReverendDG, posted 06-10-2006 7:51 PM Rob has replied
 Message 30 by Coragyps, posted 06-10-2006 7:51 PM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 31 of 150 (320176)
06-10-2006 7:53 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Coragyps
06-10-2006 7:47 PM


So you don't hold that morality is absolute. I understand now.
Your way too easy... I do hold that morality is absolute. And the wages of sin is death. I deserve it as much as the next man, so I don't suggest anyone throw stones...
That does not mean that we cannot remind each other that our behavior is sinful. That is not judgement but only telling the truth.
You see, the problem with you folks is that you think your good, and this other group or that is bad (or stupid). When in reality we are all bad and we are all stupid...
And knowing that doesn't make you smarter, it only makes you irritating to those who prefer to not know and enjoy their pleasures for another day.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Coragyps, posted 06-10-2006 7:47 PM Coragyps has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Coragyps, posted 06-10-2006 7:59 PM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 32 of 150 (320179)
06-10-2006 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by ReverendDG
06-10-2006 7:51 PM


like i said cannibals think they are right the people being eatten do not
there is no universal standards
I see! You don't personally have a preference?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by ReverendDG, posted 06-10-2006 7:51 PM ReverendDG has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by ReverendDG, posted 06-10-2006 8:00 PM Rob has not replied
 Message 39 by Chiroptera, posted 06-10-2006 8:06 PM Rob has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 33 of 150 (320182)
06-10-2006 7:59 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Coragyps
06-10-2006 7:51 PM


I haven't yet heard of a society that meets my ideas of a Good Society.
And you continue to reject the one who will give it to us when he is ready because you would have to stop judging other people and look at your own sin in the mirror of God's law.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Coragyps, posted 06-10-2006 7:51 PM Coragyps has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Coragyps, posted 06-10-2006 8:04 PM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 36 of 150 (320189)
06-10-2006 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Coragyps
06-10-2006 7:59 PM


So those who work on the Sabbath or draw pictures of fish are irretrievably doomed for their heinous sin. That makes perfect sense....
Your missing so much my friend... we're all condemnded!
It just forces us to see our need for a savior.
Savior = no judgement! We still deserve it, He just saves us form ourselves. Not complicated.
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Coragyps, posted 06-10-2006 7:59 PM Coragyps has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Coragyps, posted 06-10-2006 8:06 PM Rob has not replied
 Message 40 by jar, posted 06-10-2006 8:08 PM Rob has replied

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