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Author Topic:   Is morality absolute or relative?
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5871 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 100 of 150 (320384)
06-11-2006 1:07 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by jar
06-11-2006 1:02 AM


Re: Why is it you Fundamentalist Christians are always making death threats ?
You are but a Goat.
Perhaps I am jar, perhaps I am.
What you will never understand jar, is that your position... is a fundamentalist position.
This has been a most enlightening experience for me. I have been humbled, and as a result, exalted!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by jar, posted 06-11-2006 1:02 AM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Rob, posted 06-11-2006 1:12 AM Rob has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5871 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 101 of 150 (320387)
06-11-2006 1:12 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by Rob
06-11-2006 1:07 AM


Re: Why is it you Fundamentalist Christians are always making death threats ?
Why is it you Fundamentalist Christians are always making death threats
Whoa I missed the title!
I did no such thing! I said that if I believed what you said about morality that you would not be safe!
I do not believe what you say about morality, therefore you are quite safe.
I do not condemn you at all, and do not think it is 'people like you' destroying the world (that is how you view things). I know that it is people that are destroying the world. I consider myself among them. You falsely elevate yourself above the fray...
So, who is the fundamentalist??? It is the accuser!
I am only here to speak the truth. And the truth is that you are a sinner who needs to repent. I do hope you'll find the truth!
Your paranoid too!
Rob
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Rob, posted 06-11-2006 1:07 AM Rob has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5871 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 102 of 150 (320391)
06-11-2006 1:20 AM


being Christians, you and Crash should understand this very well
"Woe to you Pharisees, because you love the most important seats in the synagogues and greetings in the marketplaces. 44 "Woe to you, because you are like unmarked graves, which men walk over without knowing it." 45 One of the experts in the law answered him, "Teacher, when you say these things, you insult us also." 46 Jesus replied, "And you experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them. 47 "Woe to you, because you build tombs for the prophets, and it was your forefathers who killed them. 48 So you testify that you approve of what your forefathers did; they killed the prophets, and you build their tombs. 49 Because of this, God in his wisdom said, 'I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and others they will persecute.' 50 Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all. 52 "Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering." 53 When Jesus left there, the Pharisees and the teachers of the law began to oppose him fiercely and to besiege him with questions, 54 waiting to catch him in something he might say.

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by jar, posted 06-11-2006 1:37 AM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5871 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 104 of 150 (320398)
06-11-2006 2:03 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by jar
06-11-2006 1:37 AM


Re: Try sticking to the topic Robhis very well
We are still waiting for you to show why you think morality is absolute.
WE??? Your the only one left who doesn't get it jar?
Because if morality does not reflect reality, and cohere with the assumed purpose and meaning of life, then it does not exist.
And if it only exists because we say it does... Well then, I don't really give a rats rump what we say. At that point, all your philosophy is mere abstraction and meaninglessness. At that point, a Jew in Hitlers Germany was a mere statistic in natures cosmic evolutionary crapshoot! Sucks to be you I guess!
If I believed that, I would live exclusively for me...
I agree with you that murder is wrong. The only difference is you think that it makes you civilized to see that, and I think it proves we're murderers in need of the law giver!
You will never understand this jar. Not from what I see. I pray and believe that God see's more than I.
Your not capable of the humility required to see into the mirror of God's law. You don't have the strength to see yourself for what you are.
And that is a pity, because He has the strength to forgive what you cannot! He died for you too. Your the only one who believes your own lies! Even I forgive you. You just don't think you need any forgiving.
Well, I forgive you for that too. And I know God does.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by jar, posted 06-11-2006 1:37 AM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by DrJones*, posted 06-11-2006 2:07 AM Rob has replied
 Message 106 by anglagard, posted 06-11-2006 2:10 AM Rob has not replied
 Message 107 by NosyNed, posted 06-11-2006 2:20 AM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5871 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 108 of 150 (320407)
06-11-2006 2:27 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by DrJones*
06-11-2006 2:07 AM


Re: Try sticking to the topic Robhis very well
Is it really humble to boast of your humility?
I'm not talking about my humility, I'm not a humble person myself. I am prideful and hate losing an argument. Unfortunately I do lose them when I forget that I am trying to say something meaningful and instead seek to prove to everyone that I'm really smart.
I'm not OK, and I am not smart. But Jesus is OK, and smarter than all of us. I will boast of His humility, because He did not condescend becasue of it. His humility was without defilement. He could have anhialated us as we drove the nails, but He didn't because He was secure.
You know what the problem is with trying to figure out reality for most of us?
We try to leave the one thing out that is the only reality we cannot question. The fact that we are depraved!
Malcomb Muggeridge said it as well as anyone:
"The depravity of man is at once, the most imperically verifiable reality, and yet it is the most intellectually resisted fact."
C.S. Lewis said in chapter one of 'Mere Christianity' that we know the Law of Human nature and really can't seem to get rid of it. Furthermore we do not keep it, He goes on to say that those two things we must understand if we are to begin to understand anything about the world we live in. It is why he titled chapter one, 'right and wrong as a key to understanding the universe'.
I'm not bragging DR., I'm stating the obvious that typically goes right under our inflated heads.
Perhaps if I were actually perfect you would listen. As it is you can rightly label me a hypocrite! There are only two ways not to be a hypocrite.
1. Actually be perfect and sinless.
2. Have no standards of behavior at all.
Perhaps if I were perfect, you would crucify me!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by DrJones*, posted 06-11-2006 2:07 AM DrJones* has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by ReverendDG, posted 06-11-2006 2:39 AM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5871 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 110 of 150 (320411)
06-11-2006 2:41 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by NosyNed
06-11-2006 2:20 AM


Re: What we have already learned.
Yes, we have learned from other posters here that there are people like you with no conscience. They can't control themselves and have to have someone with a very big stick indeed threaten them with punishment to make them behave.
I don't control myself because God is going to punish me if I don't. I still do not control myself enough to be free from God's rightful justice. I can't save myself!
You are free to believe that you control yourself. And I hope that you do, because that is all that is required to enter heaven. Perhaps you can speak for God since you are qualified.
Job 13: 6-12 "Hear now my argument; listen to the plea of my lips. Will you speak wickedly on Gods behalf? Will you speak deceitfully for him? Will you show him partiality? Will you argue the case for God? Would it turn out well if he examined you? Could you deceive him as you might deceive men? Would not his splendor terrify you? Would not the dread of him fall on you? Your maxims are proverbs of ashes; your defenses are defenses of clay."
Not all of us are like that.
I know. You are fortunate! I am afflicted.
If I were smart I would listen to you and learn the truth, that there is no truth. But I am only a fool for Christ! He has bought and paid for me. I needed forgiveness and traded my life for it.
He who tries to keep his life will lose it. But He who loses his life for my sake will find it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by NosyNed, posted 06-11-2006 2:20 AM NosyNed has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5871 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 111 of 150 (320413)
06-11-2006 2:50 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by ReverendDG
06-11-2006 2:39 AM


Re: Try sticking to the topic Robhis very well
as i said before moral absolutes are impossible because too many other factors come into play for there to be, its not black and white as you seem to see everything but all grey
That's interesting! 'All' is not a grey concept! You are making a very fundamentalist claim to deny that things are fundamental.
In denying that anything is black and white, you prove that they are...
A logically contradictory statement cannot be true!
Don't you see? Morality is the only thing in this relative world that is absolute. That is why it is the key to understanding the mystery.
But you cannot see it, because you do not want your sin revealed. Your fig leaves have become such a part of you, that you cannot imagine anymore, the real you. You have become dead even as you live.
”This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God (John 3; 19).
It is like trying to work out math problems and understand (see) the equations without having the number 1 in your toolbox.
Morality is the 1.
Jesu did not come to give a blind religion to the poor. He came to make the blind see and free sinners.
Mt 9:13
But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by ReverendDG, posted 06-11-2006 2:39 AM ReverendDG has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by anglagard, posted 06-11-2006 2:59 AM Rob has replied
 Message 113 by jmrozi1, posted 06-11-2006 3:02 AM Rob has not replied
 Message 115 by AdminPD, posted 06-11-2006 8:01 AM Rob has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5871 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 117 of 150 (320468)
06-11-2006 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by anglagard
06-11-2006 2:59 AM


Re: Try sticking to the topic Robhis very well
I ask, who are you to pass judgment on the state of another's eternal soul?
I am not passing judgement. I am only telling the truth. It is a situation that we are all in.
It is contrary to what you perceive. For example, if you see yourself as righteous and guilty of nothing, then it is you who pass judgement on those (such as myself) who are the problem. It is then that you begin to meddle in all varieties of social construct to enact repair to the dammage I and others have done. Perhaps you will write law to right the wrongs. Not only do you judge, but you legislate from an assumed position of sovereignty.
I defer to C.S. Lewis to add context to your misinterpretation of how I can say with certainty some of these things:
Now the position would be quite hopeless but for this. There is one thing, and only one, in the whole universe which we know more about than we could learn from external observation. That one thing is Man. We do not merely observe men, we are men.
It seems to me that Lewis was familliar with discussions like these on morality. He continues:
Now what interests me about all these remarks is that the man who makes them is not merely saying that the other man’s behavior does not happen to please him. He is appealing to some kind of standard of behavior which he expects the other man to know about. And the other man very seldom replies: “To hell with your standard.” Nearly always he tries to make out that what he has been doing does not really go against the standard, or that if it does there is some special reason in this particular case why the person who took the seat first should not keep it, or that things were quite different when he was given the bit of orange, or that something has turned up which lets him off keeping his promise. It looks, in fact, very much as if both parties had in mind some kind of Law or Rule of fair play or decent behavior or morality or whatever you like to call it, about which they really agreed. And they have. If they had not, they might, of course, fight like animals, but they could not quarrel in the human sense of the word. Quarreling means trying to show that the other man is in the wrong. And there would be no sense in trying to do that unless you and he had some sort of agreement as to what Right and Wrong are; just as there would be no sense in saying that a footballer had committed a foul unless there was some agreement about the rules of football.
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by anglagard, posted 06-11-2006 2:59 AM anglagard has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by nwr, posted 06-11-2006 11:39 AM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5871 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 118 of 150 (320470)
06-11-2006 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by anglagard
06-11-2006 2:59 AM


Re: Try sticking to the topic Robhis very well
See # 117

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by anglagard, posted 06-11-2006 2:59 AM anglagard has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5871 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 120 of 150 (320473)
06-11-2006 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by nator
06-11-2006 7:35 AM


Re: Law has nothing to do with morality.
You accused someone of hating God.
Really? And that suprises anyone? Does any of us love God? Am I the first to admit that we are an adulterous generation, forsaking the truth in exchange for a moment of pleasure? Which of us is righteous and good? Which of us keeps His commands? Which of us does not nail the truth to the cross every day?
This issue of Morality being absolute is unable to be subtracted from the Biblical worldview. So I am not getting off topic.
It is not a contention that is proved by showing evidence. It is a contention that is proved because of what we are.
We are the evidence!
Romans 3:10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; 11 there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. 12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one." 13 "Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit." "The poison of vipers is on their lips." 14 "Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness." 15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16 ruin and misery mark their ways, 17 and the way of peace they do not know." 18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes."
Romans 1: 16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 17 For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith." 18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness,
19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. 24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen. 26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. 28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by nator, posted 06-11-2006 7:35 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by CK, posted 06-11-2006 11:57 AM Rob has replied
 Message 124 by nator, posted 06-11-2006 12:30 PM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5871 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 121 of 150 (320474)
06-11-2006 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by nwr
06-11-2006 11:39 AM


Re: Try sticking to the topic Robhis very well
To me, that quoted text reads like an account of moral relativity.
Well, I confess that I have often been guilty of seeing what I wish to see (hence my poor performance in a couple other threads), but not you I'm sure!
footnote: those long boldface quotes are too garish and hurt the eyes.
Ok! I'll edit them out...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by nwr, posted 06-11-2006 11:39 AM nwr has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5871 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 125 of 150 (320497)
06-11-2006 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by CK
06-11-2006 11:57 AM


Re: What's all this about?
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX is an example of a objective morality. It is an objective moral because XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX.
Lol... The look on your face says it all... Great avatar!
Ok, some of you (scratch that, all of you) seem to be having a great deal of difficulty grasping this. I can't tell you why you have this difficulty without myself being accused of judging (in which case you would be judging me), so let me try to answer in this way:
Did we have a right to interfere and stop Adolph Hitler from imposing his worldview on the rest of humanity?
If we say we do without referring to an absolute morality, we are guilty of doing the same thing he is. The only difference is that we won. Not because we're right (there is no right in such a view). So we must not say we have the right. We can only say we have the power and the will.
If you say we do not have the right, then you are consistant in your conviction that morality is relative, and by your pacifism will ensure in the future, a world dominated by such a man as Hitler who has the power and the will.
Let's bring it up to date.. Did we have the right to kill Al Zaqawri?
So if none of us has the right to judge, because judging assumes a 'right', then how can any of you accuse me of judging you?
In order to do so, you must adopt the same reasoning that you are rejecting.
I think that is why Michael savage calls liberalism a mental disorder. Personally, I think Michael savage is wrong about that!
It is not a mental disorder, but a spiritual disorder. It is called sin! And it blinds us to the truth!
If that is offensive, I ask you on what basis that you yourself are not simply inventing?
Morality exists because God exists!
Only He has the right to say what is right and wrong.
If you disagree, who really cares using your view?
You see, I don't have to prove that morality is absolute... You cannot deny it without saying that it is yourself!
One of us is right and the other is wrong. The law of non-contradiction cannot be challenged, because if you challenge the law of non-contradiction you will end up proving the law. Because if you challenge the law you must infer that I am wrong and you are right!
Morality is absolute! If it is not, then don't argue the point or you will defeat yourself and become your own enemy...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by CK, posted 06-11-2006 11:57 AM CK has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5871 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 126 of 150 (320500)
06-11-2006 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by nator
06-11-2006 12:30 PM


Re: Law has nothing to do with morality.
Do you hate Santa Claus? Yes or no?
No!
Do you hate Krishna? Yes or no?
No!
Do you hate the Great Galactic Goat? Yes or no?
What is the great galactic goat?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by nator, posted 06-11-2006 12:30 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by nator, posted 06-11-2006 3:04 PM Rob has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5871 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 127 of 150 (320511)
06-11-2006 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Chiroptera
06-11-2006 12:26 PM


Re: Good morning, everyone. I'm back.
Is there an absolute standard for morality?
I will repeat what I said before: it does not exist because, like a four-sided triangle, the definitions themselves do not allow it.
Morality is, basically, the determination of whether actions (and maybe attitudes) are right or wrong.
Right and wrong are inherently subjective feelings.
Therefore, there cannot be an absolute standard of morality.
Thank you! I think I get it now... I'm wrong!
Thank you for sharing your feelings, and proving my point!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Chiroptera, posted 06-11-2006 12:26 PM Chiroptera has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5871 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 128 of 150 (320512)
06-11-2006 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Chiroptera
06-11-2006 12:26 PM


Re: Good morning, everyone. I'm back.
You see, I don't have to prove that morality is absolute... You cannot deny it without saying that it is yourself!
One of us is right and the other is wrong. The law of non-contradiction cannot be challenged, because if you challenge the law of non-contradiction you will end up proving the law. Because if you challenge the law you must infer that I am wrong and you are right!
Morality is absolute! If it is not, then don't argue the point or you will defeat yourself and become your own enemy...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Chiroptera, posted 06-11-2006 12:26 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by jar, posted 06-11-2006 1:39 PM Rob has replied
 Message 132 by Chiroptera, posted 06-11-2006 1:53 PM Rob has not replied

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