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Author Topic:   Is morality absolute or relative?
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 121 of 150 (320474)
06-11-2006 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by nwr
06-11-2006 11:39 AM


Re: Try sticking to the topic Robhis very well
To me, that quoted text reads like an account of moral relativity.
Well, I confess that I have often been guilty of seeing what I wish to see (hence my poor performance in a couple other threads), but not you I'm sure!
footnote: those long boldface quotes are too garish and hurt the eyes.
Ok! I'll edit them out...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by nwr, posted 06-11-2006 11:39 AM nwr has not replied

CK
Member (Idle past 4128 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 122 of 150 (320478)
06-11-2006 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by Rob
06-11-2006 11:39 AM


What's all this about?
What on earth is this thread about? You providing a rational argument for your position of an absolute morality or preaching in a rather long-winded and dull matter?
Why on earth do you think non-believers are going to take the bible as part of rational argument? It carries no weight at all with us.Providing increasingly long and dull quotes from your religious book is of no help at all. A Muslim could turn up and claim the same as you do - all religions could, it's a tactic that has failed time and time again here - we've heard it all before.
Re-reading the thread, it appears after 120 posts you have failed to convince anyone that a) your position has any merit or b) that you are likely to support such a premise in the near future.
Try the following:
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX is an example of a objective morality. It is an objective moral because XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Rob, posted 06-11-2006 11:39 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by Rob, posted 06-11-2006 12:36 PM CK has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 123 of 150 (320488)
06-11-2006 12:26 PM


Good morning, everyone. I'm back.
Boy, it sure looks like an interesting five pages of post that were written after I logged off -- NOT.
Let's try to get back to topic.
Is there an absolute standard for morality?
I will repeat what I said before: it does not exist because, like a four-sided triangle, the definitions themselves do not allow it.
Morality is, basically, the determination of whether actions (and maybe attitudes) are right or wrong.
Right and wrong are inherently subjective feelings.
Therefore, there cannot be an absolute standard of morality.
One can, in principle, impose a single standard on everyone, and this seems to be what some Christians (and people of other faiths) think God is trying to do. However, this single standard is chosen arbitrarily, and even choosing God's choices are but an arbitrary choice. There is nothing that makes God's choices any more "objective" than, say, my barber's.

"We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the same sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart."
-- H. L. Mencken (quoted on Panda's Thumb)

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Rob, posted 06-11-2006 1:16 PM Chiroptera has not replied
 Message 128 by Rob, posted 06-11-2006 1:23 PM Chiroptera has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 124 of 150 (320493)
06-11-2006 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by Rob
06-11-2006 11:39 AM


Re: Law has nothing to do with morality.
You accused someone of hating God.
quote:
Really?
Yes, you really did accuse jar of hating God in Message #68 of this thread.
It is precisely why you hate the ten commandments.. because you are a liar, an adulterer, a God hater, and otherwise insulant arrogant bastard like the rest of us...
quote:
And that suprises anyone?
No, it surprises no one that a fundamentalist Christian would say such a rude, terrible thing.
It happens all the time around here. We're used to it.
quote:
Does any of us love God? Am I the first to admit that we are an adulterous generation, forsaking the truth in exchange for a moment of pleasure? Which of us is righteous and good? Which of us keeps His commands? Which of us does not nail the truth to the cross every day?
If your point is that none of us are perfect, then why do you continually claim to know The Truth?
But anyway, you are still avoiding my question.
Do you hate Santa Claus? Yes or no?
Do you hate Krishna? Yes or no?
Do you hate the Great Galactic Goat? Yes or no?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Rob, posted 06-11-2006 11:39 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by Rob, posted 06-11-2006 12:40 PM nator has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 125 of 150 (320497)
06-11-2006 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by CK
06-11-2006 11:57 AM


Re: What's all this about?
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX is an example of a objective morality. It is an objective moral because XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX.
Lol... The look on your face says it all... Great avatar!
Ok, some of you (scratch that, all of you) seem to be having a great deal of difficulty grasping this. I can't tell you why you have this difficulty without myself being accused of judging (in which case you would be judging me), so let me try to answer in this way:
Did we have a right to interfere and stop Adolph Hitler from imposing his worldview on the rest of humanity?
If we say we do without referring to an absolute morality, we are guilty of doing the same thing he is. The only difference is that we won. Not because we're right (there is no right in such a view). So we must not say we have the right. We can only say we have the power and the will.
If you say we do not have the right, then you are consistant in your conviction that morality is relative, and by your pacifism will ensure in the future, a world dominated by such a man as Hitler who has the power and the will.
Let's bring it up to date.. Did we have the right to kill Al Zaqawri?
So if none of us has the right to judge, because judging assumes a 'right', then how can any of you accuse me of judging you?
In order to do so, you must adopt the same reasoning that you are rejecting.
I think that is why Michael savage calls liberalism a mental disorder. Personally, I think Michael savage is wrong about that!
It is not a mental disorder, but a spiritual disorder. It is called sin! And it blinds us to the truth!
If that is offensive, I ask you on what basis that you yourself are not simply inventing?
Morality exists because God exists!
Only He has the right to say what is right and wrong.
If you disagree, who really cares using your view?
You see, I don't have to prove that morality is absolute... You cannot deny it without saying that it is yourself!
One of us is right and the other is wrong. The law of non-contradiction cannot be challenged, because if you challenge the law of non-contradiction you will end up proving the law. Because if you challenge the law you must infer that I am wrong and you are right!
Morality is absolute! If it is not, then don't argue the point or you will defeat yourself and become your own enemy...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by CK, posted 06-11-2006 11:57 AM CK has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 126 of 150 (320500)
06-11-2006 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by nator
06-11-2006 12:30 PM


Re: Law has nothing to do with morality.
Do you hate Santa Claus? Yes or no?
No!
Do you hate Krishna? Yes or no?
No!
Do you hate the Great Galactic Goat? Yes or no?
What is the great galactic goat?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by nator, posted 06-11-2006 12:30 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by nator, posted 06-11-2006 3:04 PM Rob has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 127 of 150 (320511)
06-11-2006 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Chiroptera
06-11-2006 12:26 PM


Re: Good morning, everyone. I'm back.
Is there an absolute standard for morality?
I will repeat what I said before: it does not exist because, like a four-sided triangle, the definitions themselves do not allow it.
Morality is, basically, the determination of whether actions (and maybe attitudes) are right or wrong.
Right and wrong are inherently subjective feelings.
Therefore, there cannot be an absolute standard of morality.
Thank you! I think I get it now... I'm wrong!
Thank you for sharing your feelings, and proving my point!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Chiroptera, posted 06-11-2006 12:26 PM Chiroptera has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 128 of 150 (320512)
06-11-2006 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Chiroptera
06-11-2006 12:26 PM


Re: Good morning, everyone. I'm back.
You see, I don't have to prove that morality is absolute... You cannot deny it without saying that it is yourself!
One of us is right and the other is wrong. The law of non-contradiction cannot be challenged, because if you challenge the law of non-contradiction you will end up proving the law. Because if you challenge the law you must infer that I am wrong and you are right!
Morality is absolute! If it is not, then don't argue the point or you will defeat yourself and become your own enemy...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Chiroptera, posted 06-11-2006 12:26 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by jar, posted 06-11-2006 1:39 PM Rob has replied
 Message 132 by Chiroptera, posted 06-11-2006 1:53 PM Rob has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 129 of 150 (320515)
06-11-2006 1:39 PM


absolute reason, and absolute morals
God did not create reason, it is an integral part of His nature. It cannot serve to cover the truth, for it will only expose whatever it covers.
In the same way, morality is not an invention of God, but an integral part of His nature. His goodness cannot hide what is bad, but will expose whatever it touches.
So reason and morality are inextricably linked. You cannot deny the absolute nature of morality, without deny the reasoning behind your own declaration.
It is like saying, 'there is no metaphysical realm'.
That is a metaphysical statement...
Or that, 'there is no truth!'
Then that statement is false...
Or that, 'there is no God.'
Then you must be omniscient and therefore God....
Morality is absolute, and I am right about it!
That is why I fled to the cross. Because the truth is, I would be 'rightly' condemned by a 'real' and absolute standard!
If you don't believe that, then you are consistent in saying morality is not absolute. I see no moral requirement to be consistent within your framework, yet you are careful to remain so...
Let us reason together!
Rob

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Chiroptera, posted 06-11-2006 1:56 PM Rob has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 130 of 150 (320516)
06-11-2006 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by Rob
06-11-2006 1:23 PM


Topic Rob
Topic Rob.
Is morality absolute or relative?
We are still waiting for you to show why you think morality is absolute.
You have not yet given us an example of absolute morality.
I can think of examples of things that are moral, such as "Love others as you love yourself". That is moral. But it is not absolute. It is realtive. Love others as you love yourself.
So we still await an example of absolute morality, an example that can be supported.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Rob, posted 06-11-2006 1:23 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by Rob, posted 06-11-2006 1:45 PM jar has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 131 of 150 (320519)
06-11-2006 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by jar
06-11-2006 1:39 PM


Re: Topic Rob
We are still waiting for you to show why you think morality is absolute.
Yes I have jar. Over and over again. You are unable to hear, because you insist that I play by rules that you contend are not real.
You then try to hold me accountable to your rules, even though I am free to play by my own.
I think we are all accountable to God's rules. Otherwise this exchange is meaningless.
I'm not talking about my feelings... but if I am according to you, why do you feel the need to say that I am wrong?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by jar, posted 06-11-2006 1:39 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by Coragyps, posted 06-11-2006 2:11 PM Rob has not replied
 Message 136 by jar, posted 06-11-2006 2:44 PM Rob has replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 132 of 150 (320523)
06-11-2006 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by Rob
06-11-2006 1:23 PM


Another dish of tasty word salad.
quote:
You see, I don't have to prove that morality is absolute... You cannot deny it without saying that it is yourself!
Huh?
Let me see if I got this; you simply believe that there must be an absolute standard for morality, but you are unable to present a cogent argument for this belief. It is simply something that you believe, for no other reason than you believe it, and it is going to be a waste of our time to continue to ask you to try to explain it (not that I don't have the time to waste, mind you).
Just a warning -- past experience has shown that you get one, maybe two, free threads to trash to bits; after that, if you continue to refuse to present arguments based on facts or logic then you will start finding your posting privileges restricted. I recommend that you begin to at least stay on topic, avoid these inane comments on other people's attitudes, and try to present a clear, cogent argument as to why we should believe that there is an absolute standard for morality.

"We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the same sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart."
-- H. L. Mencken (quoted on Panda's Thumb)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Rob, posted 06-11-2006 1:23 PM Rob has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 133 of 150 (320524)
06-11-2006 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by Rob
06-11-2006 1:39 PM


Re: absolute reason, and absolute morals
quote:
You cannot deny the absolute nature of morality, without deny the reasoning behind your own declaration.
Sure I can. The reason I deny it is that different people have different opinions of the morality of various actions. This is evidence that there is no absolute standard.
Now, why should I believe that there is an absolute standard?

"We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the same sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart."
-- H. L. Mencken (quoted on Panda's Thumb)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Rob, posted 06-11-2006 1:39 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by Rob, posted 06-11-2006 2:35 PM Chiroptera has not replied

Coragyps
Member (Idle past 735 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 134 of 150 (320528)
06-11-2006 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by Rob
06-11-2006 1:45 PM


Re: Topic Rob
Otherwise this exchange is meaningless.
This bit seems to be close to accurate, at least.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Rob, posted 06-11-2006 1:45 PM Rob has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 135 of 150 (320534)
06-11-2006 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by Chiroptera
06-11-2006 1:56 PM


Re: absolute reason, and absolute morals
Now, why should I believe that there is an absolute standard?
Because if there is not, then what am I wrong about?
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Chiroptera, posted 06-11-2006 1:56 PM Chiroptera has not replied

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