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Author Topic:   Tentativity and The Bible
GDR
Member
Posts: 4961
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 3 of 48 (648533)
01-16-2012 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by DWIII
01-16-2012 8:57 AM


DWIII writes:

"Testing all things" is the very foundation of scientific inquiry. Why should any aspect of the Bible itself be exempt?

It shouldn't be exempt. I think that one good reason is that neither Jesus nor Paul understood the then Hebrew Scriptures to be exempt.

For example Jesus said this when asked about divorce in Mark 4.

quote:
4 They said, "Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce and send her away." 5 "It was because your hearts were hard that Moses wrote you this law," Jesus replied. 6 "But at the beginning of creation God 'made them male and female.' 7 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, 8 and the two will become one flesh.' So they are no longer two, but one.

Jesus doesn't say that God said this, but that "Moses said this", and then He goes back before that to Genesis to show what it was that God wanted.

In Matthew 19 Jesus reaffirms what He had said earlier.

quote:
7 "Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?" 8 Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning.

He is saying that Moses got it wrong. It is obvious that Jesus saw these Scriptures as being written by men not God.

in Matthew 5 he puts it this way.

quote:
31 "It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.' 32 But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery.

In this quote in referring to the Scriptures he merely says that "it has been said".

Jesus did not understand the Scriptures to be read as the literal Word of God. He used His reason, His wisdom and the Holy Spirit in the "Testing of All Things".

Paul did the same. In addition to your quote Paul said this in 1 Corinthians 6:

quote:
12 "Everything is permissible for me"--but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"--but I will not be mastered by anything.

Paul is essentially repudiating such things as the food laws and saying that we have to determine what is beneficial to us.

Paul writes this in Romans 2:

quote:
13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

Our righteousness with God is not based on keeping a set of laws, it is based on our hearts. Do we love selfishly or unselfishly? Is our joy found in self gratification or is it found by bringing and finding joy in others. Is it all about me or is it about God's good creation?

The fundamentalists who insist that the Bible is to be understood as coming word for word from God are modern day Pharisees that pervert the message of God.

Yes, I believe that there is judgement but it is based on our where our heart is, not based on a total denial of our gifts of reason and wisdom and accepting a literal version of the Bible giving us a God who tells us to love our enemy but also that it is fine to slaughter his whole community.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by DWIII, posted 01-16-2012 8:57 AM DWIII has not yet responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4961
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 4 of 48 (648560)
01-16-2012 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by DWIII
01-16-2012 8:57 AM


Testing the Bible
DWIII writes:

What fundamentalists call "The Bible" has many of the earmarks of having been a work in progress, even though it is now considered by them frozen in completed form, which either stands together or falls together as one monolithic whole.

I decided I wanted to add to what I posted previously as there seems to be a dearth of fundamentalists and/or so called Biblical literalists on this forum.

In talking about how we understand the Bible I think it is most often the OT that gets misunderstood by fundamentalists but it is true of the NT as well.

I remember walking into a fundamentalist church one time when I was working out of town and being asked by the Pastor if I was saved. This whole thing of being saved, meaning am I going to heaven or not, completely misconstrues the Gospel message. If this is the fundamental aim of Christianity it would mean that the basic goal of the whole faith is self centred. It becomes how do I avoid hell and get to heaven. The Gospel message is about love for others and opposed to self love so the whole basis of fundamentalism is flawed from the outset.

Here is a passage from Paul's 1st letter to the Corinthians chap 4.

quote:
1 Let a man regard us in this manner, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God. 2 In this case, moreover, it is required of stewards that one be found trustworthy. 3 But to me it is a very small thing that I may be examined by you, or by any human court ; in fact, I do not even examine myself. 4 For I am conscious of nothing against myself, yet I am not by this acquitted ; but the one who examines me is the Lord. 5 Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men's hearts; and then each man's praise will come to him from God. 6 Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, so that in us you may learn not to exceed what is written, so that no one of you will become arrogant in behalf of one against the other. 7 For who regards you as superior ? What do you have that you did not receive ? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?

The Bible says that we are not to judge each other or even ourselves. We are to let God figure that out, yet the fundamentalists ignore that part of the Bible because it does not conform to their idiosyncratic version of Christianity.

Again, as this passage points out, we are not judged on our religious beliefs, but on the condition of our hearts. That is the message of the Gospel - it is not the message that the fundamentalists preach with their twisting of the meaning of John 3:16 IMHO.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by DWIII, posted 01-16-2012 8:57 AM DWIII has not yet responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4961
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 11 of 48 (650553)
01-31-2012 10:46 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Stanley Sethiadi
01-31-2012 9:06 PM


Re: Change is Difficult
Stanley writes:

The Bible being God's word is much higher then any scientific theory and any human philosophy. At least for believers.

Hi Stanley

Welcome to EvC. Good to have you aboard.

I'm wondering what you mean by the Bible being "God's word". Does that mean to you that there is no human input and that it is essentially dictated by God, or do you allow for the idea that as humans are involved in its writing, editing and compilation that there can be human errors in its content?


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Stanley Sethiadi, posted 01-31-2012 9:06 PM Stanley Sethiadi has not yet responded

    
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