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Author Topic:   Morality Decreasing With Time?
jar
Member (Idle past 420 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 3 of 305 (370262)
12-16-2006 7:48 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by anglagard
12-16-2006 7:13 PM


I have seen only increasing morality over time
I hear such statements often, but never see anything but assertion to back it up.
I suggest that to keep this manageable one example at a time.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by anglagard, posted 12-16-2006 7:13 PM anglagard has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 420 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 39 of 305 (370915)
12-19-2006 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Rob
12-19-2006 11:14 AM


Re: The semi-hidden moral reality...
My contention is that it is faith in the absolute that has restrained man's moral choices, and given him the capacity (as weak as it may appear) to become more than just an animal. Never to that unblemished level that too many seek to project.
A contention, but one that no one has ever been able to defend here at EvC when examined.
What makes man different from the other animals is our understanding that morality is not an absolute, but rather depends entirely on the particular characteristics of an incident.
Morality is a matter of behavior, it is what we do and why we do it. It is not LAW. It is not Commandments. It is changing and relative, and this is what the Bible teaches us, what Jesus tried to teach us.
I think it is even more profound than that. Time has nothing to do with the equation. Good is good irrespective of time. And that is one reason why it can be said that mankind is the same as it has always been.
Good has no meaning except in the context of a particular incident. What might be good in one case may well be bad in another. Inevitably it comes down to actions, and actions within a specific set of events that are related in both time and spatially to that action.
The great Gift of the Garden of Eden story is that we receive the Knowledge of Good and Evil. That means in every situation we need to examine our actions, our behavior as it relates to that specific incident and try to make a judgment call.
It is all relative.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Rob, posted 12-19-2006 11:14 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by anastasia, posted 12-19-2006 2:40 PM jar has replied
 Message 54 by Rob, posted 12-19-2006 3:34 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 420 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 44 of 305 (370922)
12-19-2006 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by anastasia
12-19-2006 2:40 PM


Absolutes?
Relative to absolute truth, I think.
What Absolute Truth?
People keep throwing around such assertions but so far no one has been able to show what they are.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by anastasia, posted 12-19-2006 2:40 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by anastasia, posted 12-19-2006 2:56 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 420 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 47 of 305 (370926)
12-19-2006 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by anastasia
12-19-2006 2:56 PM


Re: Absolutes?
He believes that absolute truth which he has found applies to everyone whether they know it or not.
I can only ask "What Absolute Truth?"
So far no one has presented one that has any meaning on examination.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by anastasia, posted 12-19-2006 2:56 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by anastasia, posted 12-19-2006 3:28 PM jar has replied
 Message 55 by Rob, posted 12-19-2006 3:40 PM jar has replied
 Message 72 by Rob, posted 12-19-2006 6:04 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 420 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 52 of 305 (370939)
12-19-2006 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by anastasia
12-19-2006 3:28 PM


Re: Absolutes?
I can not tell in what context you are reading these words. In the context of what I am saying, they refer to what you elsewhere have called 'Question'.
Huh?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by anastasia, posted 12-19-2006 3:28 PM anastasia has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 420 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 57 of 305 (370945)
12-19-2006 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Rob
12-19-2006 3:34 PM


Re: The semi-hidden moral reality...
Quotemining is seldom productive.
If and when you can show some Absolute Truth or morality, perhaps there might be some point in discussing it.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Rob, posted 12-19-2006 3:34 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Rob, posted 12-19-2006 3:54 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 420 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 58 of 305 (370946)
12-19-2006 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Rob
12-19-2006 3:40 PM


Re: Absolutes?
Yes or no jar, is there absolute truth?
No idea. I can say that no one has been able yet to show any such critter so the evidence so far is that there is no absolute truth.
You want to play word games or give us an example of Absolute Truth?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Rob, posted 12-19-2006 3:40 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Rob, posted 12-19-2006 3:57 PM jar has not replied
 Message 61 by anastasia, posted 12-19-2006 4:03 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 420 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 62 of 305 (370951)
12-19-2006 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Rob
12-19-2006 3:54 PM


Re: The semi-hidden moral reality...
Absolute truth is not something you prove exists jar, it is something you cannot deny!
Go ahead and try to give me a logical statement that posits an absolute while denying that absolutes exist.
That's why NJ's signature says what it says.
You have to use absolutes, in order to deny them. So if you deny them, you might as well say that you don't exist.
In fact, you can't prove to me that you do... You might be a silicon chip in a petri dish and all of this is just your imagination. It's just that to deny you do not exist would be absurd in the highest degree.
So as usual nothing but word games and attempts to change the subject.
It is a shame so many Christians are ignorant of reason and logic and so seem to be unable to understand even basic statements.
The question was never whether or not Absolutes exit, but rather whether one specific thing, Absolute Truth, exists.
As I said, I have no idea if that thing, Absolute Truth, exists, only that so far no one has been able to show us and support some Absolute Truth that does not resolve upon examination to a triviality.
An Absolute Truth that cannot be explained, clearly and simply so that all can understand what is true about it, what worth or value it imparts, is of no importance.
If you wish to discuss things, first, pay attention to what the other person says. Second, stop misrepresenting what the other person says.
Is this just Rob yet again?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Rob, posted 12-19-2006 3:54 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Rob, posted 12-19-2006 4:23 PM jar has replied
 Message 136 by Rob, posted 12-21-2006 1:04 AM jar has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 420 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 65 of 305 (370955)
12-19-2006 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by anastasia
12-19-2006 4:03 PM


Re: Absolutes?
It is relative to 'love thy neighbor'. An absolute truth, or so it seems.
You seem to forget that that is a two parter; Love thy neighbor as you love yourself.
The first part is qualified by the second clause and that is unique and individual. How you love thy neighbor is relative to how you love yourself.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by anastasia, posted 12-19-2006 4:03 PM anastasia has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 420 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 69 of 305 (370962)
12-19-2006 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Rob
12-19-2006 4:23 PM


Re: The semi-hidden moral reality...
You are making that out to be a play on words, but it is far more than that. It means that absolute truth is a logical necessity.
Sorry but that is simply not supported by what you have said nor is it related to what I said.
I have not said that absolutes cannot or do not exist.
I will repeat it yet again:
The question was never whether or not Absolutes exit, but rather whether one specific thing, Absolute Truth, exists.
As I said, I have no idea if that thing, Absolute Truth, exists, only that so far no one has been able to show us and support some Absolute Truth that does not resolve upon examination to a triviality.
An Absolute Truth that cannot be explained, clearly and simply so that all can understand what is true about it, what worth or value it imparts, is of no importance.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Rob, posted 12-19-2006 4:23 PM Rob has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 420 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 73 of 305 (370983)
12-19-2006 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Rob
12-19-2006 6:04 PM


Re: Absolutes?
Justice, Mercy, and love.
Pain is relative. All of the above are absolute.
How are they absolute? For example people often speck of Justice tempered with Mercy. If that is the case neither are Absolutes.
But the issue is not if Absolutes might exist, they do, but of Absolute Truth?
That is why we expect them without excuse from others. Or to add context, that is why we are bitter... because we demand it and have lost all hope in receiving.
Who expects them without excuse from others? Who has lost all hope of receiving?
There is only one place that I see them converge, and that is on the cross of Christ. (for the record, that last line was quotemined).
What? Just another unsupported assertion and totally unrelated to either the topic or Absolute Truth.
You have still provided no evidence of an Absolute Truth or that there is any indication that Morality is decreasing.
If anything, all of the evidence is that Morality is increasing.
Once we considered slavery moral.
Once we considered prohibiting interracial marriage moral.
Now both practices are considered immoral.
If anything morality is increasing.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Rob, posted 12-19-2006 6:04 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Rob, posted 12-21-2006 12:41 AM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 420 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 79 of 305 (371053)
12-20-2006 12:25 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Hyroglyphx
12-20-2006 12:05 AM


Re: The semi-hidden moral reality...
Might be nice if it had ANYTHING to do with the subject or topic.
Unfortunately is it simply more of the slight of hand, shell games, beloved by the snake oil salesmen.
Case in point, if you were to posit that there are no absolutes, you would be breaking the law of non-contradiction, because by saying that there are no absolutes is, in itself, an absolute statement.
Case in point. By hoisting this old canard, petards seemingly in short supply this season, the conartist is drawing your attention away from what has been said.
No one has said that there are no absolutes. There may well be absolutes and in fact some absolutes may even be placed in evidence.
What has been said is that so far no one has presented an example of Absolute Truth or Absolute Morality that stands up to examination.
The conartist does not want you to see that he has palmed the pea, so he draws your attention away from what has been said to the totally unrelated question of non-contradiction. It does not matter that no one has said that Absolutes cannot exist. He has distracted you long enough to palm the pea and take your money.
Again:
What has been said is that so far no one has presented an example of Absolute Truth or Absolute Morality that stands up to examination.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-20-2006 12:05 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 420 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 85 of 305 (371102)
12-20-2006 8:52 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by Hyroglyphx
12-20-2006 3:41 AM


If you have evidence now is the time to bring it forward.
What has been said is that so far no one has presented an example of Absolute Truth or Absolute Morality that stands up to examination.
If you know of some Absolute Truth or Absolute Morality, now would be a good time to bring it up so that it can be examined.
If you have evidence of decreasing morality, then again, this would be a great place to present it since that happens to be the topic under discussion.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-20-2006 3:41 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by anastasia, posted 12-20-2006 10:35 AM jar has replied
 Message 140 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-21-2006 11:59 AM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 420 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 88 of 305 (371118)
12-20-2006 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by anastasia
12-20-2006 10:35 AM


Re: If you have evidence now is the time to bring it forward.
Well I would tend to agree that "Love thy Neighbor" is close to an absolute, but as you point out
On the first subject, there is no meeting of the minds about who exactly the neighbor is.
so that seems to be relative and subject to judgment and interpretation.
I have no idea what SSA laws are so I can't comment on that.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by anastasia, posted 12-20-2006 10:35 AM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by anastasia, posted 12-20-2006 10:56 AM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 420 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 90 of 305 (371121)
12-20-2006 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by anastasia
12-20-2006 10:56 AM


Re: If you have evidence now is the time to bring it forward.
I never said that the absolutes are not subject to interpretation. In fact, I said they were.
Okay, you totally lost me now. If an absolute is subject to interpretation, then how is it absolute?
AbE:
In addition, how does that relate to morality over time?
Edited by jar, : add additional paragraph.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by anastasia, posted 12-20-2006 10:56 AM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by anastasia, posted 12-20-2006 11:13 AM jar has replied
 Message 93 by anastasia, posted 12-20-2006 11:18 AM jar has replied

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