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Author Topic:   The Irrefutable Public Health Care Thread
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 1 of 314 (649579)
01-24-2012 1:15 PM


This is where we will argue:
* That public healthcare means lower taxes.
* That public healthcare means less bureaucracy.
* That public healthcare means better outcomes.
* That public healthcare means cheaper private healthcare if you want it.
* That public healthcare means that you will be better able to afford private healthcare if you want it.
* That public healthcare is just.
* That public healthcare is desirable.
* That the present system of healthcare in the USA is neither capitalism nor socialism, but an evil hybrid producing the worst of both worlds.
* That it is undeniably best that the USA should have public healthcare.
Let's put this all in one thread instead of debating it piecemeal when the topic is something else.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Phat, posted 01-24-2012 1:29 PM Dr Adequate has replied
 Message 14 by Taq, posted 01-24-2012 3:05 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 5 of 314 (649584)
01-24-2012 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Phat
01-24-2012 1:29 PM


Re: All I know
Would public health care work for me?
Clearly, what with you being a member of the public.
Also, you raise a good point about your contract. The thing about healthcare that I didn't have back in the UK is fear. What if your employer decides to drop healthcare provision? And if s/he does, then you have type II diabetes, a pre-existing condition that would make it difficult for you to get healthcare even if you could afford to pay your own premiums ...
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Phat, posted 01-24-2012 1:29 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 6 of 314 (649591)
01-24-2012 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by saab93f
01-24-2012 1:37 PM


We pay more in taxes ...
Well, name your country. The chances are that you pay less in taxes to provide public healthcare.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by saab93f, posted 01-24-2012 1:37 PM saab93f has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by saab93f, posted 01-24-2012 3:09 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 8 of 314 (649597)
01-24-2012 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Perdition
01-24-2012 2:22 PM


Re: All I know
Another benefit of public, universal health care would be there would no longer be "out-of-network" doctors, clinics or hospitals. You'd be able to go to the doctor you wanted, rather than having to choose the best or closest from a list provided by your healthcare network.
I'm not sure that that is completely true. While in the UK, I would have had a lot of difficulty registering with a GP in a whole other city.
This would be a fairly trivial restriction, because in fact I wanted to be registered with a practice that was ten minutes' walk away from me.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 21 of 314 (649639)
01-24-2012 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by saab93f
01-24-2012 3:09 PM


"Well, name your country. The chances are that you pay less in taxes to provide public healthcare. "
I live in Finland. From my ~5000 Eur monthly wage I pay 29 percent tax and them some 6 percent for unemployment coverage etc.
So here's the figures for government healthcare spending (these are from 2005, I happened to have them handy):
Finland: Per capita government expenditure on health at average exchange rate (US$) 2196.0
U.S: Per capita government expenditure on health at average exchange rate (US$) 2862.0
The U.S. government is spending, on average, ~$700 more on healthcare per capita. This means that the U.S. government is taxing more per capita to pay for it. And yet for all this spending, most Americans are not eligible to receive government healthcare, so they have to pay again for private insurance. Which doesn't actually cover their medical bills, so they have to pay again for co-pay in the case that they actually get ill.
But forget the private fees they have to pay for the moment, and look at this one singular fact. Americans are paying more in taxes to pretend that they have a capitalist system (which they don't, and which doesn't work) than you are paying in taxes for socialized medicine.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 74 of 314 (649768)
01-25-2012 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Taq
01-24-2012 3:05 PM


Of course public healthcare will increase taxes.
But it doesn't.
If we look at the UK, at France, at Canada, or indeed if we look at Finland which was produced at random on this thread and frees me of suspicion of cherry-picking, the U.S. government is paying more per capita to prop up a broken system than to institute one that actually works. The figures are black and white.
Assuming there isn't something special about the U.S. which is both awful and completely unfixable, the U.S. would have lower taxes if the U.S. had a proper system of public healthcare.
You just assume what people want everyone to assume --- that the U.S. has a capitalist system of healthcare, and that if there is one good thing to be said about capitalism, it's that it means lower taxes. The second of those propositions may be true, but the first is a damned lie.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 79 of 314 (649774)
01-25-2012 1:39 PM


Topic
Is there any chance we could focus a little more on the topic of this thread? Thanks.

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Omnivorous, posted 01-25-2012 1:42 PM Dr Adequate has not replied
 Message 83 by onifre, posted 01-25-2012 1:56 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 87 of 314 (649790)
01-25-2012 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by onifre
01-25-2012 1:56 PM


Re: Topic
I believe it is an evil hybrid producing the worst of both worlds, and I've given great suggestions as to how to alleviate the problem. Low carb diet, exercise, healthy living, reduces our individual need for the healthcare system. That way we take the power away from insurance companies, big pharm and the rest of the capitalist assholes, and also, remove the need for socialized medicine.
If every American looked inward and focused on how they can help themselves, instead of looking at the government to solve things, we'd be much better off.
Some other posters have tried to derail the topic with jokes and anecdotes, but I've tried my best to bring it back on track.
Well you're really not.
Yes, there are things we can do as individuals to keep ourselves healthy, but this has nothing to do with the topic of what we should do when people get sick.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by onifre, posted 01-25-2012 1:56 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by onifre, posted 01-25-2012 2:49 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 90 of 314 (649793)
01-25-2012 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by onifre
01-25-2012 2:49 PM


Re: Topic
I can't tell if you're a sociopath or merely a troll. Either way, I should like you to take your ravings to a thread where they have a shred of relevance to the topic.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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