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Author Topic:   The Irrefutable Public Health Care Thread
onifre
Member (Idle past 1030 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 241 of 314 (653220)
02-19-2012 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 217 by Rahvin
02-03-2012 3:06 PM


Non-parody logic
...not really. Health inevitably declines with age. A healthy lifestyle can delay the inevitable, but entropy always wins in the end. Exercise all you want, eat only a perfect diet, cut out everything bad for your health, and you'll still eventually require medical care as your body starts to wear out.

I'm not trying to say that eventually we won't get old and die, jeez guys, lets focus. All I said was you can age and stay healthy.

If you exercise, eat right and stay away from un-healthy vices, then when you get to the later ages you've EARNED medical attention. But some fatbody, pumping his/her face with fast food, who never moves from the couch, has the BALLS to want healthcare all their life? I have to draw the line. That's bullshit, man, anyway you slice it.

There's no mystery as to why food portions are larger and so are Americans, and why many more Americans have diabetes. Take care of yourself, your body deserves it. Then and ONLY then, can you ask for healthcare when taken proper care of yourself.

A person who exercises properly and regularly and eats right will be less likely to get sick or injured, but I recall a certain Tour de France winner who still got cancer.

Yeah, and he ripped that nut out and kept on going. How do you think he would have faired if he was an obese fatty?

People like Lance have EARNED the right to healthcare.

I could keep going. A healthy lifestyle only reduces health risk, it does not eliminate it. Universal healthcare is mandatory, regardless of the diet and exercise of the population.

You provide SOME cases of genetic disorder (which I have stated should be allowed to die off and not be part of our gene pool, but we carry the weak) and from that you deduce that REGARDLESS of the diet and exercise regiment of a person they should get universal healthcare... I can't agree with that.

If a person has a shitty diet, have zero work out habits, have no concern for their health, WHY on earth should they get healthcare? THEY DON'T CARE ABOUT THEIR HEALTH! It's a waste if you ask me.

Some people, sure, if you like, who have genetic issues (if you don't want to let them die off and get rid of those issues from our gene pool) deserve healthcare. But for these lazy, gross, over weight slobs who LIVE inside fast food places and/or their couch, really? Fuck 'em. Why should you get healthcare when you show a CLEAR sign of not caring for your health?

This kind of logic is INSANE. It reminds me of the people who bought HOT coffee, spilled it on themselves cause they're idiots, then demanded money cause the coffee was hot.

- Oni


This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by Rahvin, posted 02-03-2012 3:06 PM Rahvin has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by xongsmith, posted 02-19-2012 11:58 AM onifre has responded

    
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 1871
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009


(1)
Message 242 of 314 (653224)
02-19-2012 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by onifre
02-19-2012 11:03 AM


RE: taking care of your health
Onifre writes:

If you exercise, eat right and stay away from un-healthy vices, then when you get to the later ages you've EARNED medical attention. But some fatbody, pumping his/her face with fast food, who never moves from the couch, has the BALLS to want healthcare all their life? I have to draw the line. That's bullshit, man, anyway you slice it.

Okay...

Maybe if we penalized bad diets & couch potatoes with something akin to those driver points. Each time you buy a MacDonald's hamburger pattie (twice for doubles, thrice for triples, etc.) you get hit with a point against you which makes your premium go up more than the price of the evil food. Each time you buy a pack of cigarettes you get hit with 25 such points. Bottles of booze the same way (now that might just bankrupt me). Each time you go the gym or something close to it, you get to knock off a point or two, if you have points to be knocked off.

This kind of logic is INSANE. It reminds me of the people who bought HOT coffee, spilled it on themselves cause they're idiots, then demanded money cause the coffee was hot.

Oh my friend Onifre! Please! Do your own research first before you respout this well-known nonsense. That was a legit suit. McD's had already been taken to court many times and had managed to fend off all with their big corporate lawyer arms - it was on record already - THEY HAD BEEN WARNED MORE THAN ONCE IN COURT TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT AND DID NOT until this old woman demonstrated very painfully, sustaining severe burns, that the lid could not be removed without strength beyond her ability. Also the temperature of the hot coffee was way above what it needed to be. This is NOT the example you want to use for arguing against frivolous lawsuits. There are other cases to cite for that, I'm sure - if you look.


- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by onifre, posted 02-19-2012 11:03 AM onifre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by Theodoric, posted 02-19-2012 12:15 PM xongsmith has not yet responded
 Message 244 by onifre, posted 02-19-2012 12:15 PM xongsmith has not yet responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5954
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 243 of 314 (653225)
02-19-2012 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by xongsmith
02-19-2012 11:58 AM


RE: taking care of your health
I agree. Oni has bought into right wing talking points and crap on this.

he should read of which he speaks.
http://www.lectlaw.com/files/cur78.htm
http://www.slip-and-sue.com/...offee-spill-lawsuit-revisited

Reality rarely confirms to what we think we know.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by xongsmith, posted 02-19-2012 11:58 AM xongsmith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by onifre, posted 02-19-2012 12:24 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
onifre
Member (Idle past 1030 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 244 of 314 (653226)
02-19-2012 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by xongsmith
02-19-2012 11:58 AM


RE: taking care of your health
Okay...

Maybe if we penalized bad diets & couch potatoes with something akin to those driver points. Each time you buy a MacDonald's hamburger pattie (twice for doubles, thrice for triples, etc.) you get hit with a point against you which makes your premium go up more than the price of the evil food. Each time you buy a pack of cigarettes you get hit with 25 such points. Bottles of booze the same way (now that might just bankrupt me). Each time you go the gym or something close to it, you get to knock off a point or two, if you have points to be knocked off.

Sounds too complicated.

Here's the easy way: Pull out a scale. Get up there fatty...nope you don't qualify, get to the gym. Or...yup you qualify, go ahead and get any disease you want.

Oh my friend Onifre! Please! Do your own research first before you respout this well-known nonsense. That was a legit suit. McD's had already been taken to court many times and had managed to fend off all with their big corporate lawyer arms - it was on record already - THEY HAD BEEN WARNED MORE THAN ONCE IN COURT TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT AND DID NOT until this old woman demonstrated very painfully, sustaining severe burns, that the lid could not be removed without strength beyond her ability. Also the temperature of the hot coffee was way above what it needed to be. This is NOT the example you want to use for arguing against frivolous lawsuits.

Nah I'm pretty sure I'm right.

- Oni


This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by xongsmith, posted 02-19-2012 11:58 AM xongsmith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by Warthog, posted 02-19-2012 5:01 PM onifre has responded

    
onifre
Member (Idle past 1030 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 245 of 314 (653228)
02-19-2012 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by Theodoric
02-19-2012 12:15 PM


RE: taking care of your health
Oni has bought into right wing talking points and crap on this.

I believe you are the one who has bought into crap, sir.

That coffe was fine untill some WEAK (here we go again) old lady, probably never done a push up in her life, could barely open it and spilled hot coffee on herself. Change everything! Some old person can't function normally. Here' a million dollars you weak dolt.

- Oni

Edited by onifre, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Theodoric, posted 02-19-2012 12:15 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
onifre
Member (Idle past 1030 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 246 of 314 (653254)
02-19-2012 2:42 PM


America the Beautiful!!!
Hey, want to know what happens when you mix TacoBell and Doritos? Well wonder no more!

The Dorito Taco

That's right, Dorito on the outside, taco on the inside. And it's only $1.69 so it fits into a working families budget. I bet it taste just like diabetes. Mmmm goodness!

Healthcare for eveybody!!!

- Oni

Edited by onifre, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by xongsmith, posted 02-19-2012 3:32 PM onifre has responded

    
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 1871
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009


Message 247 of 314 (653260)
02-19-2012 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by onifre
02-19-2012 2:42 PM


Re: America the Beautiful!!!
Ok.

Fuck you, you lazy asshole. ;-)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by onifre, posted 02-19-2012 2:42 PM onifre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by onifre, posted 02-19-2012 3:59 PM xongsmith has not yet responded

    
onifre
Member (Idle past 1030 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 248 of 314 (653262)
02-19-2012 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by xongsmith
02-19-2012 3:32 PM


Re: America the Beautiful!!!
Ok.
Fuck you, you lazy asshole. ;-)

The time it took you to write that you could have done a few push ups. Just knocked out 30 myself with this post.

- Oni


This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by xongsmith, posted 02-19-2012 3:32 PM xongsmith has not yet responded

    
Warthog
Member (Idle past 2048 days)
Posts: 84
From: Earth
Joined: 01-18-2012


Message 249 of 314 (653277)
02-19-2012 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by onifre
02-19-2012 12:15 PM


RE: taking care of your health
quote:
Here's the easy way: Pull out a scale. Get up there fatty...nope you don't qualify, get to the gym. Or...yup you qualify, go ahead and get any disease you want.

...and have you ever been a smoker, taken any non-prescribed drug, had an injury that restricts your mobility or had any history of mental illness?

You sound like you work for an HMO.

You've sidestepped the whole rational argument in this thread and gone back to shouting 'fat people don't deserve it'. Why don't you address the actual argument rather than sticking your fingers in your ears and repeating the same drivel over and over?


Ignorance is a Tragedy
Willful Ignorance is a Sin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by onifre, posted 02-19-2012 12:15 PM onifre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by onifre, posted 02-20-2012 10:36 AM Warthog has responded

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 1030 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 250 of 314 (653353)
02-20-2012 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 249 by Warthog
02-19-2012 5:01 PM


RE: taking care of your health
...and have you ever been a smoker, taken any non-prescribed drug, had an injury that restricts your mobility or had any history of mental illness?

Smokers aren't taking care of their health. Under my plan they wouldn't qualify 'till they kicked the habit. It's only fair that if you're inhaling smoke into your lungs and want to die then we should let you do that.

Why would you try to keep someone alive who made zero effort to keep themselves alive?

Healthcare should be a privilage rewarded to those who care about their health, not unhealthy slobs. And of course for the rich who get what they want anyway.

You've sidestepped the whole rational argument in this thread and gone back to shouting 'fat people don't deserve it'.

Not just fat people. Anyone who has no regard for their health seems illogical to offer them healthcare.

Why don't you address the actual argument rather than sticking your fingers in your ears and repeating the same drivel over and over?

Don't tell me what to do.

I rest my case on Dorito Taco.

- Oni


This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by Warthog, posted 02-19-2012 5:01 PM Warthog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by Warthog, posted 02-21-2012 3:35 AM onifre has responded
 Message 253 by Taq, posted 02-21-2012 5:41 PM onifre has responded

    
ProtoTypical
Member
Posts: 1777
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


(2)
Message 251 of 314 (653363)
02-20-2012 11:33 AM


Your values are not mine
I think that Oni has done a good job of exemplifying the biggest problem with public health care. Specifically, using the economics of health care to justify state control of people's behaviour. It is true that we must all make contributions for a society to work but the only reason for a society to work is to benefit the individual members.

Among the erroneous assumptions that he makes are;

- everyone values quantity over quality
- quality of life is entirely an objective assessment
- wealth and efficiency are more important than freedom


  
Warthog
Member (Idle past 2048 days)
Posts: 84
From: Earth
Joined: 01-18-2012


Message 252 of 314 (653439)
02-21-2012 3:35 AM
Reply to: Message 250 by onifre
02-20-2012 10:36 AM


RE: taking care of your health
quote:
Smokers aren't taking care of their health. Under my plan they wouldn't qualify 'till they kicked the habit

But quitting isn't enough. It also takes years for the health effects to go away.

When did you quit? Was is less that fifteen years ago? Five? Have you 'earned' the right to health care yet?

Try not to fixate on one thing - I also mentioned other drugs, injuries and mental illness as examples. How would you address these things? What about the suicidal depressive? Do they not 'deserve' help? How about a five year ex-smoker health junkie who has a stroke?

The problem with your argument is that you're taking what most people consider to be a basic human right and turning into a mechanism for control of peoples lives.

Under your plan, where would you draw the line?

From Message 135

quote:
You want government, or me, getting involved in what you feed yourself?

- Oni


Apparently you do.

quote:
Don't tell me what to do.

Why? Does it make any difference?


Ignorance is a Tragedy
Willful Ignorance is a Sin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by onifre, posted 02-20-2012 10:36 AM onifre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by onifre, posted 02-25-2012 12:21 PM Warthog has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7673
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 253 of 314 (653490)
02-21-2012 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by onifre
02-20-2012 10:36 AM


RE: taking care of your health
It's only fair that if you're inhaling smoke into your lungs and want to die then we should let you do that.

What about the people who smoke and want to live?

Why would you try to keep someone alive who made zero effort to keep themselves alive?

I would count eating food, drinking fluids, looking both ways before crossing a street, and respiring as a minimal effort to stay alive. Don't you?

Healthcare should be a privilage rewarded to those who care about their health, not unhealthy slobs.

I guess we should only let people into rehab if they don't use drugs, right?

The fact of the matter is that we will all need healthcare at some point. Health care should be given based on need, not on a moral judgement of someone's behavior. Access to healthcare is as much a privilege as access to basic education. IOW, there shouldn't be a hurdle in place based on class. That is where our healtcare system is going, a situation where there are have's and have not's based on class. This country faced a similar issue at the turn of the 20th century where emancipated slaves and the poor did not have access to schools while the well off did. The solution was to offer basic education to everyone through public education and pay for it with a progressive tax. I don't see why we can't do the same for health care.

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by onifre, posted 02-20-2012 10:36 AM onifre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by onifre, posted 02-25-2012 12:42 PM Taq has responded

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 1030 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 254 of 314 (653915)
02-25-2012 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by Warthog
02-21-2012 3:35 AM


RE: taking care of your health
But quitting isn't enough. It also takes years for the health effects to go away.

Well I'm trying to not be ridiculous and unreasonable over here.

Sure it takes a while, but it's a start. Get them off the butts and onto an intense cardio workout 7 days a week and a zero carb diet, and I think after a year of that they should be able to qualify for health insurance. See, very reasonable.

I also mentioned other drugs, injuries and mental illness as examples. How would you address these things? What about the suicidal depressive? Do they not 'deserve' help?

Well this isn't "health" as per physical issues, but rather mental issues that are separate problems. But it is documented FACT that a heathy diet and exercising program is a cure for depression. Look it up, I've already wasted too much time explaining that on this thread.

The problem with your argument is that you're taking what most people consider to be a basic human right and turning into a mechanism for control of peoples lives.

Not at all, I'm only suggesting my plan under a FREE healthcare program. If you're paying for your insurance than be as unhealthy as you want to be, as most Americans are. But if the government has to carry the burden of insuring it's citizens, then YES, it's only fair that everyone get healthy before they qualify so the cost is not as much on the tax payer.

Oni writes:

Don't tell me what to do.

Warthog writes:

Why? Does it make any difference?

Did I mention not to sass me either? Well don't.

- Oni


This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by Warthog, posted 02-21-2012 3:35 AM Warthog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by hooah212002, posted 02-25-2012 1:15 PM onifre has responded
 Message 259 by Omnivorous, posted 02-25-2012 3:22 PM onifre has responded
 Message 260 by Warthog, posted 02-27-2012 7:15 AM onifre has responded

    
onifre
Member (Idle past 1030 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 255 of 314 (653917)
02-25-2012 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by Taq
02-21-2012 5:41 PM


RE: taking care of your health
What about the people who smoke and want to live?

By default, if you like pumping smoke into your lungs on a daily basis you don't have a concern for living.

Anyone ingesting cyanide doesn't want to live. That the effects of death are slower in one than the other doesn't make the concern for life any more or less.

I would count eating food, drinking fluids, looking both ways before crossing a street, and respiring as a minimal effort to stay alive. Don't you?

I was going for effect. Hater.

I guess we should only let people into rehab if they don't use drugs, right?

Now that's just silly. I'm only talking physical health not mental anyway. Mental is different. But can be cured through a good workout plan so, you know, that solves all those problems.

The fact of the matter is that we will all need healthcare at some point. Health care should be given based on need, not on a moral judgement of someone's behavior. Access to healthcare is as much a privilege as access to basic education. IOW, there shouldn't be a hurdle in place based on class. That is where our healtcare system is going, a situation where there are have's and have not's based on class. This country faced a similar issue at the turn of the 20th century where emancipated slaves and the poor did not have access to schools while the well off did. The solution was to offer basic education to everyone through public education and pay for it with a progressive tax. I don't see why we can't do the same for health care.

That's very well said and I'm almost all for it. I just don't see why, if we're going to be taxed for it, we can't demand that people get healthy in so much as what they can control? Zero fast food, no unhealthy foods sold in stores or even produced (chips, soda, cookies, pasta, rice, donuts, honeybuns, Kit-Kats, Oreos, etc.) and everyone should take an hour out of the day for exercising. People would barely need healthcare and then the burden on the American public is reduced. You can use those taxes for other things, like education or better gyms.

I mean, beach season is coming and frankly it grosses me out when I see unfit people there. We all have to suffer with that and it's unfair.

- Oni


This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by Taq, posted 02-21-2012 5:41 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by Taq, posted 02-29-2012 11:27 AM onifre has not yet responded

    
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